graph editor for motion keyframer

hisko · Post by **hisko** » 26 Jul 2007, 08:20

Hello,

Would it be difficult to build a graph editor for the motion keyframer?
Now sometimes it's impossible to control the curve of the motion (for instance when I want to move horizontaly only with different speeds and motioncurves).
I attached a screengrab from after effects, which has a very good graph editor with bezier-curves.
Hereunder is a link to a little (low-res)segment from my film Seventeen, which was made in film resolution 2k. This openingscene was made in Toonz, the rest of the film was made with CTP (with all it's disadvatages vs. TV-paint).
A cameramotion like this wouldn't be possible in TVPaint right now.

http://eamelje.net/2006/11/05/vpros-nac ... nimatie-3/

hisko · Post by **hisko** » 29 Aug 2007, 12:55

And it would be benificial for tvpaint if every layer (or layergroup, if that's made possible in the future) thas it's own effectsstack.
What happens now is that I make a motion for a layer without rendering it yet, because I don't want the material to be altered. When I switch to another layer the effectstack shows the same motion (or effect) for the layer that's activated now. I find this really irritating and hard to work with.
It would be so much better if the layers can be folded open to show their specific effects and camera graphics (as in after effects. See example in the previous post).

ZigOtto · Post by **ZigOtto** » 13 Sep 2007, 00:36

hisko wrote:And it would be benificial for tvpaint if every layer (or layergroup, if that's made possible in the future) thas it's own effectsstack.

yeap, I add my vote for one FXstack per layer (or group),
maybe a stack window with ability to add Tabs :
a [create new] button, opening a new tab,
so you can stack some FXs on Layer A in one Tab,
and an other (different) stack of FXs on Layer B in an other Tab.
... activate all Tabs, preview ON ...

Somewhere else, one asked how to apply FX-lighting A on a layer A,
and FX-lighting B on a layer B without affecting layer A,
(in other words, each layer its own effect, and kept protected from other layer effects),
this kind of feature would allow that ...

JohnArtbox · Post by **JohnArtbox** » 13 Sep 2007, 04:06

This would make tvpaint a pretty good compositor, saving those of us who have everchanging clients from having to rebuild successive layers and rerun fx stacks based on client changes. My own thought was that you could add a "change source" and "change active layer" to the existing effect stack which would allow you more control over the order in which effects were added, but either system would be a boon.
Likewise a curve editor would be great, otherwise you need to add three or four times the number of keyframes to get anywhere near the same control.
nice little clip

malcooning · Post by **malcooning** » 13 Sep 2007, 11:16

Adding my voice to this request too.

Main benefactors are the FXs that control movement:
Keyframer
Wrapping grid
Multiplane Camera

I actually think they should have their own separate panel.

hisko · Post by **hisko** » 13 Sep 2007, 12:41

Some reactions, finally!!
Like the "activate all...preview on" buttons that Zigotto suggests I would like to request a "render all layers" button.
Why? Because every time a cameramovement is rendered the layers loose imagequality. For instance, if layer A moves, layer B moves (etc.) and there is also an overall camera that zooms into all the other layers at the same time, it would be better if all these movements are rendered in one time, so the layers only undergo one alteration.
It's hard to explain, so if anyone doesn't understand I would like to give it another try.

ZigOtto · Post by **ZigOtto** » 13 Sep 2007, 13:40

hisko wrote:Some reactions, finally!!
Like the "activate all...preview on" buttons that Zigotto suggests I would like to request a "render all layers" button.
Why? Because every time a cameramovement is rendered the layers loose imagequality. For instance, if layer A moves, layer B moves (etc.) and there is also an overall camera that zooms into all the other layers at the same time, it would be better if all these movements are rendered in one time, so the layers only undergo one alteration.
It's hard to explain, so if anyone doesn't understand I would like to give it another try.

your explanation sounds clear to me, but we don't need a button for that,
I mean it MUST be rendered ALWAYS in once, with minimun alteration, what ever the nb of stacked FXs !

about the graph editor, it's an old thing but I never mentioned it here before,
if the offset value in the KeyFramer/Render tab would be keyframable, (+ interpolation option),
it would be an easy way to use it as a Retimer tool !
see my simple exemple on this .mov file, (RMB/save target as ...)
using the IO-labs K-FramED Graph Editor on the Position (on timeline) variable.
source = 50 images, frame-rate = 12,5 i/s, + 2" hold before and after.
Retimed Destination : curve = speed at start, ... ease out in end (+ interpolation).

Post by **ematecki** » 13 Sep 2007, 15:46

Hi ZigOtto,

doesn't the "Progress Profile" of the keyframer do the retiming thinghy ?

In the timeline be sure you see all the frames you want to retime.
Open the profile editor by clicking on the profile preview, stretch the window of the editor so its width matches the length of the frames in the timeline, place it just above or below those frames in the timeline to better see what you're doing, and tweek that curve to your liking.

EM.

ZigOtto · Post by **ZigOtto** » 13 Sep 2007, 19:59

ematecki wrote:Hi ZigOtto,

doesn't the "Progress Profile" of the keyframer do the retiming thinghy ?

In the timeline be sure you see all the frames you want to retime.
Open the profile editor by clicking on the profile preview, stretch the window of the editor so its width matches the length of the frames in the timeline, place it just above or below those frames in the timeline to better see what you're doing, and tweek that curve to your liking.

EM.

I must have missed something...

the progress profile works with 2 (or more) keys, ... but I don't get what must be your keys in the keyframer?
can you tell me more on your retiming process by using KF progress profile, steps in detail ?
what/where are your keys ?
what's your Source, the FXStack, a Layer, an other Project, an AnimBrush ...?
all my attempts to retime a numbered séquence in that way have failed here .

Post by **ematecki** » 14 Sep 2007, 08:48

Sorry, it doesn't work, BUT...

After talking with Herve, we found that this was a choice of the beta testers !
They didn't want the progress profile to afffect the image sources ...

You may even remember that discussion when the progress profile was first implemented :)

EM.

Peter Wassink · Post by **Peter Wassink** » 14 Sep 2007, 10:03

i remember that discussion.

The problem was that setting a profile for the keyframer also influenced the timing of whatever it was that was being keyframed.
it was very annoying, and limited the use of the profile enormously!

Still, i would not mind putting this behavior back though.
But only when it gets a profile that can be controlled completely separate from the profile for xyz position.

.... basically this comes down to a graph editor request... i guess

i would love a graph editor.
In the keyframer, just to be able to put separate profiles on for instance "bank angle" and "position" would already make a big difference.

or the use of different profiles on each corner point of a simple 4 point wrapping grid would open up tremendous possibilities in controlling distortions
Also it would make it much easier to create wave effects.
Just draw the waves in the profile.

ZigOtto · Post by **ZigOtto** » 14 Sep 2007, 14:17

ematecki wrote:Sorry, it doesn't work, BUT...

After talking with Herve, we found that this was a choice of the beta testers !
They didn't want the progress profile to affect the image sources ...

You may even remember that discussion when the progress profile was first implemented

EM.

yes, I remember perfectly,
and it's normal to have the ability to keyframe a sequence without modifying perforce the source's timing,
because we don't want necessarily to alter the source timing while keyframing it,
so we've asked (from memory) :
"Let users have the choice! and if an Option* implementation is not possible, Disable it. "

*I mean a toggle button [Affect/Preserve] source timing Option,
OFF by default, (= preserving the source timing), and ON for altering it.

an other way imho would consist to have a new KeyFramable variable,
"Time Position" linked to the "Offset" value in the Render Tab, (... see pict.)
note: the [C] button (Create Key) should be ghosted when the Source is set on
FX Stack, Current Layer, Spare, or Paper.

or maybe better a brand-new FX separated from the KeyFramer, named "Time Twister",
exclusisely dedicated to distort the source timing via a profile.

hisko · Post by **hisko** » 09 Oct 2007, 08:40

I am using seperate lightning-effects for seperate layers now, but it's very hard to do the way the fx-stack works now, because I can't preview a lightning-effect on one layer together with another lightning-effect on another layer
So I think that tv-paint would benefit most if every layer has it's own fx-stack (or other solutions, named earlier in this post with tabs for example, but I'm pretty sure that an 'after-effects' kind of interface would be superior).
I'm sorry to repeat myself again, but I think it's very important for the way tv-paint works.

A1 · Post by A1 » 09 Oct 2007, 10:19

i agree,

I had to do a truck in over 2 crossfaded-shots in an accelerating and ease-in ease out motion. No fun at all with the current tools.

ZigOtto · Post by **ZigOtto** » 09 Oct 2007, 11:23

hisko wrote:I am using seperate lightning-effects for seperate layers now, but it's very hard to do the way the fx-stack works now, because I can't preview a lightning-effect on one layer together with another lightning-effect on another layer

yeap ... I wouldn't call that a bug but a missing part of the Lighting_FX :
why haven't we a Render Tab to set the Source ???
actually, it works somehow like in "display" mode, and no workaround available,
let take an exemple to see what I mean :
2 Layers, each one with transparency areas, if you stack :

Code: Select all

 Lighting_FX 2 
 Source = Layer 2
 Lighting_FX 1
 Source = Layer 1

in Layer 2's holes (transparency), the Layer 1 is affected by the Lighting_FX 2,
maybe the Lighting_FX should have also an option "Preserve Transparency"
to avoid to affect underneath Layer(s).