Vector layers

[Monsieur U]

I know this has probably been asked before, but it's worth requesting again : The need for Vector layers is urgent.

Most clean up artists in studios I've been working at struggle with the bitmap line, also struggle with the copy/paste/transform that degrades the drawing. Everyone agrees that vector based lines are waaaaay more convenient when it comes to having a slick, clean line.

So please, TV Paint, add this to your to-do list for version 12.

[Peter Wassink]

slick clean lines are overrated

[Monsieur U]

slick clean lines are overrated

Believe me, I don't really like them either. Alas, the producers seem to like slick lines. Easier to color. And they buy the software :/

[Peter Wassink]

For sure there are benefits to vectors, especially if they are used like in Toonboom in some sort of hybrid fashion to help maintain crisp bitmap lines.
But i imagine this requires quit a complex engine and i don't think it would be feasible to expect this to be implemented by TVPaint.
It is also difficult to implement it in such a way that it remains userfriendly.
In that respect nothing beats the directness of working with bitmap like we do in TVPaint.
And there are ways around the diminishing quality problem.

The most promising options for now seem to me, to built on the vector based drawing modes that are already present in TVPaint.
This would require less development time then building a complete vector drawing tool set.
to name two:
-The Warp Grid FX should be made applicable to the custombrush, that way you could always start with the original bitmap and only deform it once for every use, this way it won't accumulate blur.
(or find a way to make the Warp Tool animatable, this is a different underlying technology but would be very powerfull if it could be animated!)
-Introduce an FX derived from the RotoTraccking FX so you could animate single vector lines instead of only vector shapes. Basicly its an animatable bezier spline.

[Monsieur U]

Seriously, anything that makes clean up artist's life easier is welcome. Right now in studios CU is the biggest issue, as it takes a lot of time, and whenever they need to adjust something instead of simply warping or shifting an element, they have to retrace it.

[Monsieur U]

Harmony does it, Clip Studio does it, why can't there be vector layers in TVP ? I love TVP and its ergonomy, but I see a shift happening in studios (and in producer's minds) towards other software. All this because TVP projects are labeled "difficult to clean up".

[slowtiger]

There's a reason why not all software are the same: because they are different tools for different jobs. If you work in a larger commercially oriented project with lots of people each on their own small task, with deadlines and production spread over continents, then maybe one of those slick pipeline-oriented softwares is for you. If you work on a more artistically oriented project, small team, no deadline pressure, then TVP is (one of) the right tools.

You can't have everything in just one software package. There's always some trade-off, the biggest for me: vector-based software limit your design choices (I don't say the productions all look the same, but there is a certain uniformity in 90% of all animated content). TVP aims for a more artistic approach where each line still has personality. If one can't draw well enough to do clean-ups in TVP: then they probably wouldn't have got a job in paper-based animation some 10 or 20 yrs ago as well. I don't say that those people should be excluded from animation, but that's hiring lesser skilled labor for cheap, and I don't support that.

(And now call me arrogant and elitist.)

[Peter Wassink]

You could simply buy Harmony then?
Don't mean to be dim about it, but what is the reason you work in TVPaint?

You mention ergonomy... this might be something we loose when vector layers are added.

[Monsieur U]

Guys, my own tastes in software are irrelevant : I own TVP, I've been using it for years as a freelancer and as an animator on commercials and features. I really like it, I've managed to retain my habits from animating (and cleaning up) on paper. And that's great. It suits my "niche". But that's not enough.

The animation industry has evolved since the paper and cel days, don't you think ? There's a shift towards a cleaner/crispier look, and studios (not individual people) using TVP are struggling. The CU team where I work at has been complaining, because with the amount of work requested by production, some quirks in TVP are actually more a problem than a solution (yes, rotate tool, I'm talking to you). I don't see the issue of requesting improvements which are being demanded by some actors in the industry ?

I'd love to hear from someone in the TV Paint staff.

[slowtiger]

The industry should be able to have more than 1 software in a studio. If they need it, they can buy it.

Adding a complete new drawing engine is a herculanean task. We talk about a completely different technology here:
- Bitmap means that all brushes are copied into some bitmap buffer immediately, which is a relatively simple task and gives very fast performance. Brush strokes are stored as an array of cursor coordinates for reuse, and only 1 of these at any given time.
- Vector lines is a different architecture: each line in a drawing has to be calculated from the cursor coordinates, with lots of opportunity to err with position and beginning/end. Every line is a separate object in a database structure, which has to be replicated per every frame, with a lot of bookkeeping about which lines are the same from frame to frame and which are not if you want to have some automated inbetweenig as well - and this will be the next demand from some customers once a vector engine is there.

[Peter Wassink]

I think that short of introducing a whole vector engine...
the Warptool would make a good route the bridge the gap somewhat.

the way you can ply that Grid is very intuitive, in some ways more so then vector splinehandles.
if a way could be found to make it animatable, that would be a powerfull addition, also for inbetweening.

[Monsieur U]

The industry should be able to have more than 1 software in a studio. If they need it, they can buy it.

Not the kind of things I hear. More like "we're going to phase out this software in favor of this other one". These things are expensive, you know ?

Look, I can imagine software development is not an easy task, it's obvious. However, I believe that an animation software needs to evolve like the industry that uses it. A studio head once told me "vector's a game changer". Clean Up artists keep telling "vector is easier and faster for Cleanup". Now Bitmap's easier and more subtle for rough animation. Bitmap allows for better textured lines.

Look, if there's a way that could make CU people work better without needing to retrace after a resizing, rotating of warping, I'll take it. I am merely relying a growing concern in the animation studios I've been working for.

[insom]

I want to add that Clip Studio Paint currently has a very nice vector system that works as a special kind of layer, compatible with all of their usual brushes making work in vector indistinguishable from raster. It also makes cleanup a lot easier since it can precisely erase where two lines intersect for example, and makes corrections in shape and width a lot easier.

I don't think a similar vector system would be too disruptive for TVPaint with the creation of a new kind of layer that would just register strokes as vector information to reproduce a raster stroke. Even without any "advanced" vector programs like tweening or symbols like Flash has, just having crisp and editable lines is a huge plus for cleanup artists.

[Monsieur U]

I want to add that Clip Studio Paint currently has a very nice vector system that works as a special kind of layer, compatible with all of their usual brushes making work in vector indistinguishable from raster. It also makes cleanup a lot easier since it can precisely erase where two lines intersect for example, and makes corrections in shape and width a lot easier.

I don't think a similar vector system would be too disruptive for TVPaint with the creation of a new kind of layer that would just register strokes as vector information to reproduce a raster stroke. Even without any "advanced" vector programs like tweening or symbols like Flash has, just having crisp and editable lines is a huge plus for cleanup artists.

I second that statement wholeheartedly. That's exactly what clean up artists demand.

[Xavier]

Sorry, TVPaint is made to draw pixels ! it would require to completely rewrite the software to add support for vectorial drawing... and we're still too small to do that...