Ralph Bakshi on animation (from Comic Con 2008)

[hisko]

I don't have much time right now, so I keep my reaction short, in defense of Bill Plympton and Ralph Bakshi.
Bakshi's inspiring films are 'Heavy Traffic', a personal film that is special for the sort of raw storytelling that we don't know much in animation (apart from anime, but most of that is quite brainless), and 'Coonskin', which is the only Blaxploitation animation ever made (who cares about that....? Well, I do). Bakshi made a lot of bad movies later on, but these one are definitely worthwhile to see.
And he is right in his speech. It's a very agressive speech, but sometimes it's the only way to get people out of their comfortzone.
Bill Plympton is just like Paul Fierlinger one of the very few that makes feature animated films on his own (with a little help, but still it's amazing how productive he is). And some of his films are very funny and surreal (like "I married a Strange person") Of course the high production also has a downside.

[CartoonMonkey]

A friend of mine was looking over my shoulder, and brought up some rule:
That all internet conversations on message boards that become heated debates, always lead to the topic of the apocalypse.. I'm just sayin'..

[lemec]

Well for some people, it seems discussion is a battle, not an exchange.

I love a good exchange!

[CartoonMonkey]

It pains me greatly to say this .. but I "LOL'd".. Lighten up everybody!

[lemec]

Motion Capture, Rotoscoping and Tracing are good examples of techniques that have been shunned and/or vilified by purists, sometimes for vague reasons.

I'll concede that Motion Capture and Rotoscoping result in animation that is only as good as the performer being recorded and that the performer is limited to the constraints of real physics. That is where my criticism ends. Not every studio has Nine Old Men to animate for them and now none of them do because the last one died in April. If you're running a studio and you can't find enough skilled workers, you've got a deadline and a budget and certain quality standards, what else is a company to do?

Some people refuse to acknowledge work produced with Motion Capture and Rotoscoping as art. Maybe it's because it can be done with minimal human thought and effort, because it seems like cheating, because it threatens their job security or maybe for completely different reasons that I am unaware of...

... but Motion Capture and Rotoscoping gets the job done for an audience that could not give a flying fudgesicle about artistic integrity. I feel the audience is more important than any animator because they pay our bills and without them, we would have no direction at all. No purpose at all.

For the artists that deride the audience for not having the ability to discriminate between the media they consume, I would argue that those artists are unaware of what their target audience wants. Or, they are unwilling to implement a feasible production process to create a product for their target audience. Maybe they don't have a target audience. I can hear the drumming sound of businessmen helplessly contorted in paroxysms of laughter as they roll about the floor of their plush offices. I think they're laughing at the people who complain about being starving artists.

[lemec]

On the subject of anatomical correctness and busty women, I think that female supermodels and actresses are anatomically incorrect if you view the average North American civilian as being ideally anatomically correct. During the Renaissance, the Europeans, especially the Italians and the French produced most of their art using idealized proportions. As generations pass, our tastes change.

Or perhaps not. I've travelled to Europe on several occasions to see their museums and I imagine that it was not unusual for a person of royalty to commission the occasional bit of fap material from an artist. The painting may be sitting in a museum, it may be several generations old, it may have been painstakingly executed, but it's still fap material that's probably worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, and designated as a national treasure. All imagery for fap or fart is still a part of our culture, a product of our culture, it ain't new and it's here to stay.

I occasionally draw women who are "anatomically correct". Well, I'm not even going to call it that anymore. I'm going to call it: "anatomically consistent" (with an average). It's kinda boring to draw them that way but I feel I can and have demonstrated my capacity for it. I also draw to idealized proportions as a reflection of what I'd like to see. My work might be totally inconsistent with reality, but my work reflects a reality that exists inside a computer screen and I manage to exercise a fair bit of control within that reality. I follow the laws of perspective and kinesiology, maybe bend 'em a bit now and then, but I bend the rules to an amount that is relative to my knowledge of anatomically consistent people. I do it by choice, not by accident.

As for my choice of poses, I draw the poses and angles that accentuate whatever I find most attractive unless I have a story to tell with the image. How else should it be done? I'm not thinking of raep and buttsecks when I draw these poses, but people who complain about them definitely are.

[lemec]

To all appearances, from where I sit, this has turned into a generational clash; inevitable, all things considered, nevertheless unproductive at this stage and I sign off.

If you mean to say that this appears to be a clash between beliefs held between generations, then I agree.

If it is a clash between chronologically young people and chronologically old people, it isn't, because chronological age does not dictate what a person believes in, though it affects the likelihood of which beliefs that person stands for.

The debate becomes unproductive when either side ceases to offer logical argument to support their claims. The purpose of a debate should be to reach some sort of resolution, not through the result of one party capitulating, but by proving that one point of view is logically superior to the other through logical argument.

This debate seems to have been unproductive also because I'm not sure what my opponent is standing for. Abolition of sexual themes in media? Abolition of rotoscoping and motion capture from the animation industry? I have done my best to offer rational argument for each point raised by the opposition but have received little in return except a change of subject matter and criticism for offering an opposing point of view.

If you refuse to concede defeat and you still stand strongly for your beliefs and can form some logical arguments to support your point of view then there is hope for the discussion. If you refuse to concede defeat and you still stand strongly for your beliefs and cannot form logical arguments then maybe Samuel Clemens says it best:

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true."

[Peter Wassink]

By Jove Mark! you sound like an over articulate android, i prefer it when you stick to drawing.

[lemec]

By Jove Mark! you sound like an over articulate android, i prefer it when you stick to drawing.

hyuk! hyuk! like, y'know I could like talk m0re informaly if ya want me to but actually I think I start to sound liek the othur side if yunno what I mean.

... and what a terrible thing to say! I'm warning you... eyes will roll

But seriously now (hahahaha) Ralph Bakshi may be an immoral, uncouth, perverted, exploitive, sexist, chauvinistic jaywalking, drunk-driving, child-molesting, cheating bastard who gets into the Express lane in a supermarket while carrying over 8 items and sometimes neglects to flush but he's still right!!!!!

[Gochris1]

How the hell did this turn into a discussion of busty women, and whether rotoscoping is "correct" or not?

Geez!

Bakshi's telling people to make their films. He is encouraging people to make animation, just like Bill Plympton, Nina Paley, and yes, Paul Fierlinger do. I find all four animators inspiring in their own ways, and I want to be like them. But I won't ever be unless I make my films. THAT'S what the man was saying.

[Paul Fierlinger]

THAT'S what the man was saying.

and my point is that sometimes the message is only as valid as the messenger. Now can we bring this unhappy thread to an end?

[lemec]

Who should judge the validity of the messenger? I guess people who can't think for themselves deserve to have others judge for them.

No wait, y'know what? I take that back. Logic is a good gauge for credibility. I think that Ralph's message is valid and credible because I cannot find anything he said in the video to be illogical. If someone can disprove the logic of his arguments, I will surely acknowledge it.

I don't need to 'shoot down' a person's opinions or arguments with a 9-bore gun, crossbow, slingshot or pea-shooter if they won't even fly in the first place, but y'know what? It takes a lot of courage and honesty to keep throwing your planes off a cliff to see if they fly. Next contestant!