Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

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Klaus Hoefs
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

Post by Klaus Hoefs »

I think I already tried to defend my beautiful film
:oops:
In the perception of the boy he is a victim, and his collegues are 'evil', or at least hostile.
That's the point and here I can't follow, I think that's simplified and constructed - remebering myself and my friends at fifteen/eighteen. Is the other side only "evil" ?
I think there is more between "victim and offender" and much more to find if there are peer pressure. That can be found in non-dramatically everyday gestures.
Constructionworkers yelling at ladies, fact or fiction? Check it out yourself.
C'mon that's one side of the coin, what's about the other one ? I know that you know about the coherencies. To be honest I think that's a (independent future?) goal for elite animated films to catch up with e.g. Rohmer, Bergmann and that kind.
It's a matter of personal perception, always.
Of course that's true - and I clearly said that it is my opinion of some aspects(!) of your film. It's easy only to applaude or to be silent, much harder to say why you applaude and why you agree or even not - as you know. You have to face the film and think out of the box (true!), make your mind up and also have the backbone to post it (Alas obviously here we are on grumpie's field...)
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

Post by hisko »

Look, most of my best friends are carpenters and housepainters, and they had the same objections that you have.
But I don't care about that. The film is based on my experience, ande I know that the guys that I was working with were neanderthalers in my perception at that time, talking racist and beating their wifes .
What's not in the film, is that I got kicked out of school (sort of gymnasium) and that I was slowly recovering from near-psychosis caused by a heavy and daily marihuanaconsumption.
So maybe that is why I was such an easy victim of their cruel jokes, a young boy, higher educated than they were, and fragile....like a lamb showing his neck to the wolves.
But this is too much information for a film without dialogue. It would feel constructed and contrived to put that all in. I tried to do it in a visual way.

You are right when you say that the average animationshort, or even the top-short can't compare with the level that featurefilms have reached. Most of us try to avoid dialogue, because it's very expensive to translate a dutch short in many languages.

One of my favourite directors, Stanley Kubrick was a master in visually communicating an idea, with dialogues mostly serving as standard daily conversations.
But I didn't see that level of quality in animation yet.
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

Post by malcooning »

hisko wrote:...But I didn't see that level of quality in animation yet.
Did you watch any of Igor Kovalyov's films?
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

Post by ZigOtto »

I enjoyed "Flying Nansem", ... beatifully written and pictured,
I haven't seen his last ones.
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

Post by Klaus Hoefs »

I have mixed impressions of Kovalyov, but having only seen "Milch" at some festival last year - big plus for the mood (for me, for others it was too dark), but I didn't like his style to animate people. Anyway here is something special from the web:


Flying Nansen:
Last edited by Klaus Hoefs on 07 Jan 2009, 21:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

Post by hisko »

malcooning wrote:
hisko wrote:...But I didn't see that level of quality in animation yet.
Did you watch any of Igor Kovalyov's films?
Yes, and I shared my bottle of wodka with him a few times. He is a very nice guy and I think his films are beatiful, but they are too abstract for me to really touch me in a the way that Polanski touched me with the Tenant , Kubrick with 2001, Schlessinger with Midnight Cowboy or Chaplin with City Lights. The design is perfect (makes me jealous, I don't have any design at all), but I prefer more clear storytelling.
I think his last film Milch was very personal, but to me it was just a fragmentated succesion of anecdotes. I have to say that I only saw it once and I was sleepy and drunk, so should give it another try.
Besides that I'm jealous as hell.

Do you like his films?
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

Post by hisko »

By the way.
Igor Kovaljov earns an award for modesty. Never met a guy that is so modest and down to the ground.
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

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I find it all quite coceited; this documentary and his films. When He the Hen won the Grand Prix at Ottawa I made a point that evening of going around the party room asking every member of the jury what the film was about and what it said to them. Every jurist had the same answer; that they couldn't understand the story but that it didn't matter.
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

Post by hisko »

I was touched by your film Drawn from Memory. (I know that you hate compliments, so you got me started).

I think that jurymembers on animationfestivals are very focused on style. And Kovaljov's films suggest at least that they are about a lot of things, but maybe he is just a great magician creating this illusion of meaning.
Maybe he is the emperor without clothes?
I don't think so, but I don't get his films. I think that he is a genius whith details, but not so much in communication.
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

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Hisko, you seem to use only feature live action films as your paradigm and I think it is a mistake we all go through at some point of our growth. We experience a striking moment as we move about our daily lives and play it back in our minds as live action so as to emulate the scene in animation. In my experience it seldom works, coming out rough and inadequate and unfulfilling; a disappointment. So the next time we try harder and the right mood never comes through in all its complexity and beauty. I think Klaus was attempting this a lot earlier on as well, only in his case also attempting to emulate the moods created by a painting.

I think it's a mistake to think we can achieve the same moods in animation as the feature film directors can in their films. We have it tougher; we have to find a mere graphics representation, an abbreviation of reality in a medium that is most of the time jerky. I don't believe the problem is in the length of a feature film compared to an animated short -- it's simply in the difference of the media.
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

Post by Paul Fierlinger »

Drawn From Memory's "trick" was in the authentic story telling. You decided that you can't go that route for practical purposes which I understand. It's a tough call to be so authentic in sign language.
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

Post by hisko »

You are probably right.
The problem is: I'm addicted to life action films, I like to read books, I love music.
But to sit through a whole annecyprogramme can feel like torture to me. Really. Sometimes I prefer to watch a bonfire for 8 hours instead of 30 minutes of animation.
I think I'll try it my own way first (with Junkyard).
We'll see if it'll work. If not I go back to painting.
Much more fun to do also.
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

Post by Paul Fierlinger »

My just recent discovery was that animated films are like stage plays; someone enters from stage left, someone else from stage right, each person speaks in turn and thus the story begins. I could never stand the theater because it seemed so inadequate as both a mood creator and story teller compared to live action feature films.

When I realized that I am producing theater in my own films, it came to me as a huge eye-opener. For my current film I am employing the talents of a playwright for the first time in my life. I just might get many things right this time. What we all need to do is find how to say what we need to say in the language and limitations of our medium. Isn't it striking how many adults are amazed what much animated films say when they first discover animation made for adults? We have one advantage over all those other media; we can compress time and long stories into a small space and still make it mirror the real pace of life (Drawn From Memory).

No one can argue that we can't bring out all the emotions of music or live action or paintings: we can make people cry and laugh, be scared and enlightened, astonished and titillated and on and on -- we can do a lot with audience emotions when we stay within the constraints of our medium. Now I doubt Kovalyov has made anyone go through a string of deep emotions with his films, which are basically just unsolvable puzzles and leaving people trying to guess what it was all about -- at its best. Paintings do this well too.
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

Post by ZigOtto »

hisko wrote:... I think that he is a genius whith details, but not so much in communication.
I wouldn't say that, it's rather a different communication mode,
not very peculiar in his case, I think mostly proper to slav people,
the narration gliding here and there out of the strict (conventional) reality,
the story structure sprinkled with onirical accents, another mood (level?) in communication,
less directive, more intended to open/tickle some viewer's "raw" (unexpected) feelings,
it could be recieved as something hermetic and boring by some people,
or something quite ecstatic for some others, it 's probably a matter of culture, and again, of background.
it seems to work on me, a little guy who don't take any drugs, and who sleep too much ... :)
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Re: Animated short "Seventeen" on piratebay.org

Post by malcooning »

Paul Fierlinger wrote:I find it all quite coceited; this documentary and his films. When He the Hen won the Grand Prix at Ottawa I made a point that evening of going around the party room asking every member of the jury what the film was about and what it said to them. Every jurist had the same answer; that they couldn't understand the story but that it didn't matter.
Unless the jury was biased, this shows that his film brought magic into their mind. Or, better yet, to their hearts. And if their hearts voted, there is no need to reason or to give it words of reason. Plus, the closing party is a bad choice of timing for addressing a jury who just now finally got rid of that exhausting duty of sitting through every possible screening of a multi-day festival! :wink:
hisko wrote:By the way.
Igor Kovaljov earns an award for modesty. Never met a guy that is so modest and down to the ground.
That's what I felt too. I had a drink with him also :)
Paul Fierlinger wrote:I don't believe the problem is in the length of a feature film compared to an animated short -- it's simply in the difference of the media
The problem is in the difference in length also. There's the art of short, and the art of long. It brings up considerable differences, even within a single medium - literature. Very rarely I find a short story moving me. And when it does, it is of different flavor to how a novel moves me. Length here acts as the grounds on which relationships develop - the relationship between you (audience) and the film. The content of the film will decide what flavor this relationship will have. But the length decides how much chance you have to live in that relationship. Ultimately, it is important in deepening your experience.

When we look at the film/animation teaming, many more factors come into play, because when we decide to animate, is because we believe that what we are about to say cannot be said in film in the same exactness. So the mission then becomes even harder, as we are pushed more into the realm of, well, inventing how we want to communicate. animation shares an attribute with video art: there are no rules of engagement. The call to be economical and pragmatic yields an animal that has no equivalent in any other field of arts. Hence, there so many failed attempts, or more correctly, uninteresting works. But when something works, it works beyond reasoning. It can be magic. It then becomes poetry. and in poetry you don't have to explain anything. Your favorite poem can be a poem that even when you read it 100 times, it can still nourish you. Because you find too many things in it, or because it is so beautiful, or because the metaphors are so inspiring... or because you can't just quite get it, but it leaves taste for more.
Paul Fierlinger wrote:Now I doubt Kovalyov has made anyone go through a string of deep emotions with his films, which are basically just unsolvable puzzles and leaving people trying to guess what it was all about -- at its best. Paintings do this well too.
Then give me unsolvable puzzles any day of the week. Saying "just" on his films is a bit lame. Personally, It puts me through emotions, deep enough to brings me back to his films again and again. They are candies. They are poems. They are something, that no other one makes. A piece is a puzzle only if you watch it like you are watching a puzzle. The motion art is the art of creating relationships between one image and the other in subsequence. Kovalyov is doing that well, and more: he touches the audience, like he touched that jury. If you really see his films as triumph of surface over substance, I think you have been looking at the wrong frames. Anyway, I never like being in the persuasion. It's only a matter of taste in the end. I just know that Kovalyov is up there with a select few, who touch and inspire and don't lose their voice, lightyears ahead of all the others.
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