WIP Baby Face

[ZigOtto]

... you get a little soap opera.

[mode spoiler ON] and not your ordinary soap ! [mode spoiler OFF]

[Sierra Rose]

I still wonder if anyone has thoughts about the clip I just posted. It is quite different from the model poses in the first one, I think.

[ZigOtto]

oh sorry, I didn't add comments because, basically, I would say the same things than Jesoped,
but with my miserable english ... (and I don't like to be a repeator)
1) the volume of the head is correctly respected, but the moving is a bit too linear,
(try to avoid inbetweens in the middle, f.i for a 7 drawings animation, a moving from A to B,
the 2nd line would work better than the 1rst one)

Code: Select all

A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> B
1   2   3   4   5   6   7
1 2      3      4   5  67

2) try asynchronous mvts, f.i., first the eyes down, then the head follows,
if everything move all together at the same speed, it looks mechanical (automaton-like),

3) a bit of animation on the body could add more living,
especially the folded clothing around the neck should be squeezed with the baby's chin
at the end of the animation when the head is down,
4) the hands animation needs to be achieved, because we need to know what happens
with his hands to understand the meaning of the scene,

that said, your skill in drawing make me feel you've gained more and more self-confidence,
enough imo to concentrate now your endeavour onto Animation.
despite the old master lesson (blue pencil forbidden!), I think it's easier to fix
some minor animation errors on a blue penciltest state than on a cleaned and colored animation.
that's also why I rarely comment finished animations, because it's mostly too late
for retakes or to fully re-animate it. When it's finished, it's finished, all we can say is :
"I like it", because this or that, or "I don't like it", because this or that ...

[Sierra Rose]

no I meant the second clip.

[Klaus Hoefs]

Sierra, also having problems with opening that .mov

Masters of critic
Remembering a fellow student (the time when I was twenty and studying art in Berlin) who one day was telling our professor Georg Baselitz that she had no idea for another painting. Back then Baselitz was only 2-3 times in our class - pro semester (=for a half year).So everybody was fond of speaking to him. Baselitz was looking for long at her then saying: "For the next three days: Get terribly drunk, take every man you can get, drink one pot of coffee every morning and most of all: don't sleep. If you have no idea then - study anything else." Then he turned around and walked away.
Also watched a student in Karlsruhe preparing to show drawings to his Professor, Per Kirkeby. He put his large drawings (who were looking like Kirkeby-ones) on scaffolds which he arranged in a circle, also cleaned the whole little room, put some fresh flowers on a small white desk. Without further comment Kirkeby grabbed a violet chalk and draw a Z crossover the student's work (Zorro ???). Later I asked him about this and he said that it was not the Kirkeby-style in the student's work. It was the exhibition and to be arrogant this way.

I remember a teacher talking to me and saying out of the blue, that I have to kill this little man in the back of my head who is always saying "make it right" and "you can make it right if you follow every point".

[Sierra Rose]

you even have problems opening the second clip?

Actually I found it very freeing to finally get the proportions fixed in my head so I could just jam on his expressions. I get the feeling no one has looked at the second clip where he is showing his stuff.

Either that or I am completely on the wrong page with others here.

[Klaus Hoefs]

So I watched the vl6bym6ldy-clip.

Looking at it as stills it is true your drawing style has improved. Anyway from there it comes to troubles with the animation.
It looks to me that you have animated the eyes, the mouth, the hands as parts not coming from a whole body thing. Several loosely sketchy poses of the whole baby in motion as a base would help (but for sure you know).
I know that it is hard to focus on a CU -just a few animated lines have to give character and emotion. I am remembering one clip of the now finished Tulip in which Ackerley was in CU and Paul showed it as a wip . Finally after a longer discussion he had overworked it several times, but his drawing style has the "advantage" not to claim to be physically correct. It came as a surprising jump cut and also he framed it asymmetrically giving it all much more life.
You know that I would vote for a more personal style in drawing which comes if you get rid of the cage of physical correctness (nevertheless it is important to have experienced it - eg with daily sketching) - but that' s really up to you.
Drawing in your style leads to a more objective position which also is a way to go.

[toonsisters]

Well, I think you are asking for comments on the babies proportions, not the animation timing.

The heads proportions look very good. When the baby is bending his face down, I like the backhead coming up.
Also the face is staying in the right place when he turns his head. (maybe you should check the eye distance when he is lifting his chin before closing the eyes.)

But the connection between head and neck is slipping in some frames.
For example the first frames the neck seems to be placed a little bit too far on the right side.
And closing the mouth and the eyes his head shoud come a little more up, in my impression.

I feel touched by the emotions the baby is expressing. I can almost hear it laughing.
But you know, we are women.

I hope this helps,
Vera

[Sierra Rose]

Well, I think you are asking for comments on the babies proportions, not the animation timing.

The heads proportions look very good. When the baby is bending his face down, I like the backhead coming up.
Also the face is staying in the right place when he turns his head. (maybe you should check the eye distance when he is lifting his chin before closing the eyes.)

But the connection between head and neck is slipping in some frames.
For example the first frames the neck seems to be placed a little bit too far on the right side.
And closing the mouth and the eyes his head shoud come a little more up, in my impression.

I feel touched by the emotions the baby is expressing. I can almost hear it laughing.
But you know, we are women.

I hope this helps,
Vera

Well thanks so much. It helps a lot. Yes...because he has a big bib I didn't think we would see his body and I just animated his head. I think this was a mistake and I wouldn't do it this way again because I feel how unconnected the little bit of his upper body we do see is from his head. But I can draw that in now. It feels like it will be easy to have him shrug his shoulders a little and move his arms. The hurdle for me was the head.

The first poses are off balance to his body center...I actually just rotated the first pose as a test for the lead in and I don't think I will use it.

When I download the clip, I can hear the sounds....my voice, his chortle and laughter. You couldn't huh? I actually animated him to these sounds. So I'm tickled you could catch his merriment.

Thank you for your feedback. I am encouraged that you think the proportions work...now I have to get him to drool and do funny things with his face to entertain the children. And some cracker crumbs on his bib.

[Sierra Rose]

So I watched the vl6bym6ldy-clip.

Looking at it as stills it is true your drawing style has improved. Anyway from there it comes to troubles with the animation.
It looks to me that you have animated the eyes, the mouth, the hands as parts not coming from a whole body thing. Several loosely sketchy poses of the whole baby in motion as a base would help (but for sure you know).
I know that it is hard to focus on a CU -just a few animated lines have to give character and emotion. I am remembering one clip of the now finished Tulip in which Ackerley was in CU and Paul showed it as a wip . Finally after a longer discussion he had overworked it several times, but his drawing style has the "advantage" not to claim to be physically correct. It came as a surprising jump cut and also he framed it asymmetrically giving it all much more life.
You know that I would vote for a more personal style in drawing which comes if you get rid of the cage of physical correctness (nevertheless it is important to have experienced it - eg with daily sketching) - but that' s really up to you.
Drawing in your style leads to a more objective position which also is a way to go.

I think you are right. Now that I'm more confident about keeping him an infant, not an old man, I think I would do it differently, CU or not, next time...just draw the baby''s whole upper body with the head then add the bib.

I let everything else go and just concentrated on getting him consistent. Now I think I could draw him in my sleep so I am much more relaxed about drawing in general. So it was great drawing exercise for me.

I had no idea babies were so hard and that CU's were so hard. What a good challenge this has been.

[User 767]

I found both animations unsettling (peek5, and drops head). I have to agree that they feel rather mechanical. I showed it to two three year olds, and it was not well received. I think you crossed that line of making it too real. Kids are hyper aware of what other kids look like, and what's acceptable in that realm. 3 YO quote: "there's something wrong with that baby."

What sort of response were you thinking you would get?

[ZigOtto]

no I meant the second clip.

OK, I found it, ...
the 1rst link was unreadable,
the 2nd one was the clip I commented,
I think you asked comments about your 3rd (or 4th) clip,
the vl6bym6ldy-clip, in fact a video file named "Peek5.mov" ...

a) still a bit embarrased with the hold-still of the body when the head is moving,
I think you have to make the body's upper part move a bit according to the head,
this meets toonbsister's comment when she said :

But the connection between head and neck is slipping in some frames.

b) the hands animation (with the arms) still have to be achieved,
"copy/paste" could do the trick very well for an animatic,
but for a final animation, specially in such a realistic style as yours,
you can't just copy one hand, flip it to get the other, then paste them (or keyframe).
A scene is percieved as a mass of informations,
unfortunately, the viewer's final impression will go always to the weakest point,
so the accuracy and qualities invested in the scene should be well balanced,
to give coherence and credibility .( physical correctness, expression, acting, timing,
framing, rendering, sound, editing, ...)
that said, I liked very much the baby's expressions of his face,
even when it looks abit "out of the sound" (not synch all along with the mouth imo) .

[Sierra Rose]

I found both animations unsettling (peek5, and drops head). I have to agree that they feel rather mechanical. I showed it to two three year olds, and it was not well received. I think you crossed that line of making it too real. Kids are hyper aware of what other kids look like, and what's acceptable in that realm. 3 YO quote: "there's something wrong with that baby."

What sort of response were you thinking you would get?

Yes, I think I explained already that the first clip is just a pose clip. The second is beginning to work out how his head and features would move and still look like an infant. So this isn't a finished clip, just a beginning.

I'm glad your 3 year olds didn't declare, "There's somthing wrong with that old man!" The fact they saw it as a baby is good news for me.

I have a 3 yo granddaughter and she laughs every time she sees it. But then she gets the sound that goes with it and I think somehow the sound is missing in the download.

Now that I have experience with his proportions, I will not just draw his head. This was more a study to see how to do him. But I think I already explained this.

[Sierra Rose]

no I meant the second clip.

OK, I found it, ...
the 1rst link was unreadable,
the 2nd one was the clip I commented,
I think you asked comments about your 3rd (or 4th) clip,
the vl6bym6ldy-clip, in fact a video file named "Peek5.mov" ...

a) still a bit embarrased with the hold-still of the body when the head is moving,
I think you have to make the body's upper part move a bit according to the head,
this meets toonbsister's comment when she said :

But the connection between head and neck is slipping in some frames.

b) the hands animation (with the arms) still have to be achieved,
"copy/paste" could do the trick very well for an animatic,
but for a final animation, specially in such a realistic style as yours,
you can't just copy one hand, flip it to get the other, then paste them (or keyframe).
A scene is percieved as a mass of informations,
unfortunately, the viewer's final impression will go always to the weakest point,
so the accuracy and qualities invested in the scene should be well balanced,
to give coherence and credibility .( physical correctness, expression, acting, timing,
framing, rendering, sound, editing, ...)
that said, I liked very much the baby's expressions of his face,
even when it looks abit "out of the sound" (not synch all along with the mouth imo) .

Thanks for looking at it. You have always been encouraging.

As you can see, I agree about drawing his head and upper body together now that I can keep him looking like an infant. The hands were just stuck in to show you their design, as I have said.

I'm having fun with the expressions now that I have a feel for where his features go. The synch needs improvement, I agree.

I probably should have said this was more like an animatic than a finished clip. It was more to show sketches of beginning ideas than a finished clip. I only painted the pose clip to find the colors I will use later.