WIP The Donkey and the Well

[NickA]

Hi everyone. I'm attempting my first animation with a storyline. As a self taught amateur, I'd appreciate any constructive feedback you guys can give.

Its based on a favourite old parable of mine called The Donkey and the Well by an unknown author. There are various text versions of this story all over the internet and elsewhere here's a random one).

Below is my most complete animatic for it so far. Hopefully it makes sense in it's current form:

[Klaus Hoefs]

mhmm ??

Picture 7.png (17.25 KiB) Viewed 30693 times

[Elodie]

too impatient Klaus, the video wasn't totally load yet

And by the way, the gag is fun, but the animatic is really really rough. You should first work on rythm before "lose your time" to animate shots that, perhaps, won't be well-timed =)
And add sound !

[Paul Fierlinger]

Hi everyone. I'm attempting my first animation with a storyline. As a self taught amateur, I'd appreciate any constructive feedback you guys can give.

You have selected too much of a complicated story for your very first animated film. To figure out the problems related to perspective (the deep well), too many characters (neighbors joining in and all shoveling) an ending that is too dependent on word play, the timing of edits back and forth between a limited scenery (well/surface/well/surface....) -- there are just too many obstacles for a beginner to grapple with.

The more I think of it, the more I realize that this would not be an easy story to tell even for a seasoned animator. You are making the very first mistake all beginners make; you are taking too big of a bite too chew, thus setting yourself up for failure. You are not drawing on paper (hmm...or are you?) for inkers to trace on to cels. Since you are just at the beginning of a long climb to the top, use this paperless software to its fullest potential.

I suggest you first spend more time searching for your own style and voice. You are picking up an old chewed up wad time has spit out long ago and you want to chew on it some more. Draw from your own view of the world without using the tired balloon technique invented in the 1920's to make it easy for many animators on a team to adhere to the same style. You are not living in the 20's, you are not employing a team, you are not pushed into making a quick buck on a tight deadline, and you are not competing with a dozen other studios to make a 1920's audience laugh the hardest.

By the way, I am speaking from my own experience ... I started as a self-taught dreamer too, so I'm proof that this is not a mistake. One last advice from me: don't strive for professionalism; professionalism has no place in art. Go for self expression which is a lot more fun.

[Klaus Hoefs]

sorry for being so fast with making screenshots, upload them, then writing some words testing again, previewing and upload the posting.

Anyway, by looking at your animatic I had got it already by the time the man grabs a shovel - so I think there is something wrong with the timing. The gag should come unexpected as a surprise, not as a long explanation of what is funny. So I would expand the proloque, the endless time the donkey has to stay in the well and then suddenly change tempo - the gag shall come with a smack, short and precise.

[NickA]

Thanks for the thoughs guys,

Yea the timing is very rough, A lot of the scenes I just quickly thumbnailed and placed down for one second each. I could cut out some more stuff before the farmer starts filling in the hole.

I agree Paul, that It's complicated with the up and down shots. I wouldn't add any extra characters apart from the donkey and farmer. Neither would I go into any words or analysis of the story after the donkey runs off (people can decide for themselves about any extra meaning). I see what you mean with the timing of edits.

Sorry if the story link was a bit misleading, it is just one of many variations on it and just happened to be the first one I picked off google and glanced at. I should of posted a storyboard document, to make more clear what I was aiming at.

As for the style,I chose it because, as you say, it's designed to be easier to animate with the simple shapes and small limbs (which I though would give me a better basis in understanding form and make the whole task easier). Shouldn't a personal style be developed upon a strong set of foundations at first?

I do respect the level of skill and mastery those early animators developed upon those techniques into the late 30s and 40s. Also, I do like the idea of adding more influences (from life and all over the place) in the future . I definately see what you mean about going for a less professional, more organic personal style, as you do in you own work.

I'm not sure what you mean by using the software to it's full potential. I'm drawing mostly digitally on a cintiq?

Anyway, I'll reconcider what's going on here but thanks everyone.

[CartoonMonkey]

Hey there. I have a few thoughts for you.

Your overall construction and cartooning show a great understanding of volume and style, however it leads me to ask: Have you taken any drawn animation courses?
It can be tough to develop a style without being around other animators to learn from, and I always feel it's best to learn from someone who is directly over your shoulder.
Distance learning can work, but I've developed my own personal theory that cartoonists and animators need to congregate and collaborate initially, in order to learn certain aspects of the craft.
From my standpoint, your overall character's timing as it applies to motion could use a bit of work.

If I were your teacher, I'd drag out the old, animate this walking sack of flour test. Make a sack of flour walk! Make it walk.. with sadness. Make it walk with a proud step..! etc!
These simple exercises are great for learning to animate with timing and volume, and you can find them in most any popular animation instruction book. Animation has so many combined skills to master, that it can be difficult at first to find your own creative voice or style. My advice is to study the basics a bit more, and don't jump too far ahead into a long production. ( Echoing what Paul said earlier. )

I often see in flash animation, the influence of the machine. The ease of making parts move around, with no thought to the actual motion or weight of a character.
I see a little of this in your work.

The number one thing, is don't get discouraged!
We have an army of 2d (and 3d) animators here who can help out with any questions.

Looking forward to seeing more.
C

[Elodie]

sorry for being so fast with making screenshots, upload them, then writing some words testing again, previewing and upload the posting.

Hihi, you took 4 minutes to do this. Sometimes a video cannot be seen before 10 minutes when it has just been uploaded on youtube and Co =3
But sorry Klaus, I was just kidding you

[Klaus Hoefs]

But sorry Klaus, I was just kidding you

( )
...too late - I deleted all my accounts, walked to the highest bridge and jumped in the sea and now I am dead. bisou.

[Elodie]

Oh no, and your ghost is still haunting me

[Paul Fierlinger]

I meant, it "looks" as if you might be drawing on paper... and your cintiq explanation answered that. What I meant by taking advantage of the paperless technology is that I don't see the purpose of drawing with the blue pencil anymore -- perhaps others will jump in and explain that for me. The blue pencil was used during a relatively short period when pencil drawings were photocopied onto cels; the photocopier could not see blue.
We have layers and transparency sliders.

As far as developing a style for animation goes, I would suggest that you draw naturally, the way you might if you were illustrating or drawing from real life and then putting those drawings into motion. Cartoon is an Italian word which means carton, or rough paper that boxes are made of. Renaissance painters used to first sketch layouts of their future paintings on these ripped off pieces of carton and if you'll look those up, you'll see that they looked quite cartoony, yet resembled real people rather than balloons.

I will always claim that creating a body out of balloons is a crutch that is completely unnecessary for independent animators to revert to. As long as you use those you will become embedded in a rut and grow immune to fresh ideas. Using balloons makes drawing easier at first but it is a concept designed to prevent the artist from developing an individual style.

Incidentally, I agree with Chad that to grow within a group of fellow animators accelerates ones vocabulary and skills and has been something I always missed in my own career. The same goes with honing ones computer skills and vocabulary and even sailing, which I learned also alone and could thus never do well sailing with others because I never learned to react properly to commands or give commands to others. On the other hand....(etc.)

[Byron]

As another self taught amateur, I'm not best placed to offer advice, but I'd have to agree that - for a first time animation project, I think it's way too complex. Better to take a great idea, try to distil it down to its most simple form, then try to get it across with animation.

As to this:

I don't see the purpose of drawing with the blue pencil anymore

After years of poring over model sheets in animation books - drawn in blue pencil - I just REALLY like the way it looks. When I see something I've drawn in blue pencil moving about on an orange or red layout, it makes me happy! Not a very practical answer I know, but hey! Sometimes I like to sketch over a drawing with the coloured roughing out pencils rather than creating a new layer, it just seems more direct (or maybe I'm just too lazy to make a new layer!).

[Paul Fierlinger]

After years of poring over model sheets in animation books - drawn in blue pencil - I just REALLY like the way it looks.

Now that's a real honest answer and I've always believed that this was the case. I also believe the reason it pleases you to see your own work in blue is that it makes your drawings look professional and that's because all the animation books show the works of professionals drawn in blue pencil.

This is how cultures must take shape -- one person fitting themselves in with everyone else and so the Italian School or the German School or Dutch School enter into the world's lexicon, until an iconoclast such as Van Gogh comes along and when he fails to draw well and decides not to give a damn but only paint, he paints the way he sees and feels the world to be and an original artist is born who towers over everyone else for generations to come.

This is why I think to strive for professionalism in art as a goal makes no sense and is actually counterproductive.

[slowtiger]

I hang around in several different forums, and quite often I have to answer the very same questions again and again. One of those eternal questions is "where do I get the blue pencils", and I very patiently answer that blue pencils are only necessary if one needs to use non-copy-blue for scanning or xeroxing.

But I use the blue pencil in TVP quite regularly myself, mainly because I'm too lazy to create a new layer. Often I sketch in black first then turn it blue, then clean it, erase the blue - and repeat if necessary, all on the same layer. Or I change just one part of the image to blue, saving me from creating a new layer and having to merge it again. It's not really important, it's just a habit.

[CartoonMonkey]

I will always claim that creating a body out of balloons is a crutch that is completely unnecessary for independent animators to revert to. As long as you use those you will become embedded in a rut and grow immune to fresh ideas. Using balloons makes drawing easier at first but it is a concept designed to prevent the artist from developing an individual style.

Agreed! It can be a great way to learn volume, but I still prefer "pure" cartooning and drawing, where the cartoonist just draws the character straight away, without regard to balloon construction etc.
This is the way many japanese cartoonists work, or did at one point. Sergio Aragones of Mad Magazine fame is quoted as saying this is the way he draws. And he's one of the fastest cartoonists in the world, because he just does an ink drawing from his mind, straight to paper.

Years of practice!
C