In Sync Animation

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crayon10
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In Sync Animation

Post by crayon10 »

The topic title "In Sync Animation" is not about lip syncing but about making animation fit with the a sound track, as the other way is to find sound to match up to a animation. Here are two very different example of animation that fit the audio track. These two clips, in my opinion, go beyond pose to pose timing by syncing the animation to the audio.

Please have a look.

The Audreys "Sometimes the Stars" is a gorgeous new song from Adelaide band The Audreys, taken from their 2010 album of the same name. The accompanying short animated film, produced by Luke Jurevicius and directed by Ari Gibson & Jason Pamment, is about a lost girl's journey through a surreal landscape, and her yearning to make a connection in this distant yet strangely familiar world.
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Re: In Sync Animation

Post by User767 »

Nice examples.

One of the things that annoys me about TVP is the audio handling. It doesn't make it easy to synch with a musical beat.

I've complained about that before. Not many people seem to care. Just another thing to work around. (I prefer a pseudo tape scrubbing sound)
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malcooning
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Re: In Sync Animation

Post by malcooning »

I don't understand how the first video syncs with sounds. Maybe you can elaborate?
Regardless of that, I found in it a lot of stylization, atmosphere and polish, but found no story or heart.

The 2nd video irritated me so much, I had to stop it after a few seconds. I personally don't see the point in animating the lyrics of a song. I just don't. Plus, what a horrid song...

If syncing to sound is what you're after, I recommend looking back. There are masterful examples of such approach.
Here's something to begin with:

Norman Mclaren's Synchromy


Norman Mclaren's Le Merle


And one more Mclaren (because he's just unbeatable), Cannon:
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Paul Fierlinger
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Re: In Sync Animation

Post by Paul Fierlinger »

Asaf, while I entirely agree with your assessment of crayon's samples (I never responded because I wouldn't have contained my revulsion as well as you had) I have difficulties agreeing with your use of the McLaren samples as an argument. The synchronism is just as cold, heartless and on top of that too mechanical. They are also just as formalistic and tell no story. Perhaps the best I could ever say of these was that they are playful experiments without a conclusion.
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crayon10
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Re: In Sync Animation

Post by crayon10 »

malcooning wrote:I don't understand how the first video syncs with sounds. Maybe you can elaborate?
Regardless of that, I found in it a lot of stylization, atmosphere and polish, but found no story or heart.
"Sometime the Stars", the first one, I felt synced with the music on an emotional level. Both were suppose to be example of how both the visual and audio are as one. The music and animation of the first clip are saying the same thing to me.

The second clip, in my opinion, is a literal connection of the two media. You could cut the sound off and still hear it in your head. On a personal level, I do not care for the song but I admire the cleverness of the lyrics.

It looks like this is coming down to one's own preference. I am sure, as with color, the blending of audio and visual elements will have a rainbow of possibilities.
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Re: In Sync Animation

Post by Paul Fierlinger »

crayon10 wrote:
It looks like this is coming down to one's own preference. I am sure, as with color, the blending of audio and visual elements will have a rainbow of possibilities.
Not just that but one's personal preferences never stop changing with age. After being around these films for so many years I need to be surprised to really enjoy a film and the surprises arrive with longer and longer intervals of sameness in between. Early on I used to like almost every little animated film I saw because every one of them were new to me and astonished me -- for instance every McLaren film was a small wonder. I just don't believe they have aged well into these digital times.
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User767
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Re: In Sync Animation

Post by User767 »

Did anyone go to YouTube (shopvac video) to see that it's called "kinetic typography"? Doesn't that name alone make it a valid artform? Probably not.

He speculates that he spent between 500-1000 hours making that video. Considering that that variety of animated text seems to work best in short bursts in advertising, I thought it held up fairly well for three and a half minutes. I thought he was clever with his use of logos and other 'ad' media in the video too. Since it's a social commentary 'comedy' song, I thought it worked fairly well for what it was. I bet he gets some commercial work out of this.

Norman Mclaren and all those Canadian film board folks got a bit tedious for me rapidly. Oskar Fischenger's stuff (from the 40's?) predated Mclaren, and had a little more breadth and variety to it-though it's still only 'interesting' for a little while. Still, supporting experimental film does lend to the possibility of someone coming up with something 'useful' later on.

Oh, I only chimed in to complain about the audio support in TVP anyway.
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malcooning
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Re: In Sync Animation

Post by malcooning »

Paul Fierlinger wrote:I have difficulties agreeing with your use of the McLaren samples as an argument. The synchronism is just as cold, heartless and on top of that too mechanical. They are also just as formalistic and tell no story. Perhaps the best I could ever say of these was that they are playful experiments without a conclusion.
I don't share the same sentiments. Although they were created as experiments, I find them very tasteful, aesthetic and even sincere. Even Synchromy, which is pure abstract, strikes a very warm spot for me. But it'll be difficult for me to say exactly why.
User767 wrote:Oskar Fischenger's stuff (from the 40's?) predated Mclaren, and had a little more breadth and variety to it-though it's still only 'interesting' for a little while. Still, supporting experimental film does lend to the possibility of someone coming up with something 'useful' later on.
Maybe this does emphasize the notion that it's only up to one's taste in the end. While Fischenger and Mclaren's films might have grown a beard by now, I can still watch them over and over. Comparably, I had to stop the 2 films posted at the top before I could let them finish, for lack of patience. I'm not at all denouncing contemporary films, just that today there are more filmmakers (if we should use the term film anymore) than ever before, and this also means that there are more bad films than ever before (in numbers, not percentage). And with the ever-expanding tendency to go head-over-heels over sheer gloss, one should put tastes to the test when encountering new work.

As for the consequential "usefulness" of experimental films - did it ever take place? Did anyone make a "good" use of the assumed "results" of audio-visual experiments? What if no one actually did? I could be waiting still. And while I'm waiting, I might as well enjoy and appreciate the rawness and achievement of those experiments, because the power of which lies in the very films themselves, not in their contextual or cultural conclusion.

a couple more examples, sans the "coldness" :wink: :





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slowtiger
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Re: In Sync Animation

Post by slowtiger »

(What a perfect excuse to not start working right now!)

The first two films have music I had to mute immediately: boring, bad stuff. That's already the biggest point against music videos: that in most cases the work put into the animation isn't justified by the musical quality. (And I don't care about lyrics, I only care about the music.)

But I already saw both films. The first one is a nice moody piece, I'd like to see it on the big screen once. Not bad. The second is only of interest for typographers, but in that context it really scores as an example of choosing the correct typeface for each word. Apart from that it's only one more of thousands of "moving type" films, and it showcases all recent tricks used in advertisement and TV station IDs. A good showreel for the animator, boasting his skills in After FX. But I've seen funnier "text only" films before, especially "So is this" by Michael Snow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i6H1KDJ9Ic).

"Synchromy" is interesting because the sound has been animated on film - it's more an experiment in synthetic sound than animation. I like this stuff because it illustrates some part of technical history. Visually, there's not happening much. Musically, it's a not-so-good Boogie improvisation. But the sound ... it sounds like 1950, but it's 1971, a time where synthesizers would have been available for someone like McLaren. So it's always been a technically anachronistic film.

There's always been a strong connection between recording devices, music box pieces, and animation. Sometimes a modern filmmaker chooses the oldest available recordings to work with, as it was the case of a video about some work of Conlon Nancarrow I've seen in the 90's. Nancarrow did write a great deal of Player Piano music, or better, he punched it directly into the rolls. This is one of the oldest techniques to record music. Now Nancarrow not only composed "musically", he also worked "graphically", like in "what happens if I just punch diagonal lines all over the score?" (Search for him at youtube or google to listen to some stuff.) The results are a bit hard to listen to - in the same amount as McLaren's animated sounds may be hard to watch.

That modern filmmaker (have that name in some catalogue here) translated the piano rolls into MIDI information, which were sent through a script which caused After FX to create bright moving squares at certain positions, which were treated with some backlight ray effect, so in the end it looked like a digital version of a lamp behind a player piano roll ... much ado about quite not much, I'd say. But it was interesting to watch.

What strikes me most is that some elements seem to persist, no matter which filmmaker in which decade works with that stuff. Playroll notes are nearly always represented by squares or rectangles. New sequencing devices, or computer-generated music in general, have more often than not been demonstrated with playroll pieces - because that content seemed to fit that medium best. (I'm interested in the history of synthesizers, as you may have noticed.)

"Canon" does what can be expected, and it's not the first or only film done with that idea. It gets a bit silly in the end, as if the filmmaker didn't know how to end gracefully. However, the "story" as you may name it, or choreography, roughly follows another well-established routine in film: first show the mechanism as it is supposed to work, then, as the audience knows what should happen, show what happens instead. Most Marx Brothers films use this setup in general, and many more examples can be found everywhere. One of my favourites is in "Delicatessen": a short-sighted woman has prepared the coffee table, she sits on her places and rehearses all necessary movements like offering cake and serving coffee. So we know how it's supposed to work. Now the doorbell rings, and she takes off her glasses. The mechanism should work, however, her visitor spoils it as he sits down on her place... it ends with broken dishes and a twist: she opens the cupboard to reveal a row of identical coffee pots.

"Repete" and "78tours" are two examples of another well-established genre in animation, I like to name it "Quodlibet" after the analogue musical form. (Other are "Satiemania", "Tango", and that showreel of Kassel animation studio "Lichtwerk" ... plus uncounted amounts of student films every year.) You can see the same underlying construction here: an established routine, repeated, then varied or destroyed. It's a bit like a Vaudeville act, of the kind where a certain stupid joke is done again and again, but always spoilt differently. Well, call me a simpleton, but I can laugh hysterically about that, sometimes. A subgenre of this is the film which shows several repeating movements in detail, then zooms back to reveal they're just parts of a gigantic machine. One example is the work of Henning Lederer (http://vimeo.com/user1208362/videos).

Schwizgebel is critic's darling with his films, because they generally don't make any sense, but incorporate enough hints and cues for a critic to show that he knows his film history. In this example it's about the spinning record, other rotating things, the connection between cheap musette accordeon waltzes and fairground attractions like caroussels, and he throws in some old cinematic devices for good measure, like a zoetrope. People like me also remember that you can easily build a zoetrope with a piece of cardboard on your grammophone, and media historians will also remember the "Dream Machine" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamachine) which is said to create hallucinations, again based on the record player. Now that's quite a lot of cultural injection for a single film, isn't it? But does it show, and does it make it a better film? I doubt it. As much as Schwizgebel is a skilled painter, as much I was left untouched by his films every time.

Which leaves only Betty Boop. Why is it that we still enjoy this purely nonsensical silly stuff? I think because it's a very pure kind of entertainment, which only works in animation, and is not overloaded with connotations. It is pure movement, and it is purely visual. This very special quality is mostly lost in contemporary animation. I found some examples only in very amateurish films by non-educated artists, those who haven't been spoilt by rules of storytelling or matters of taste or, one of my most hated reasons, "character development". In the classical cartoon period some artists have been able to incorporate stuff like this, "just because it's possible". Oh wait, some artists still can do this: Mike Scott (http://vimeo.com/1617742), who's an active member over there in the Anime Studio forum, and Alex Budo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0PGK7a2 ... re=related).
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Re: In Sync Animation

Post by User767 »

didn't experimental film lead to "Fantasia" (one of the bigger experimental films of all time)?

sparks your imagination? Obviously, some people like it, some don't. If nothing else, it's something someone else has done that demonstrates it's not necessary for most of us to do it too.

As an experiment, I sent the video links to some friends. The graphics guy only saw some After Effects plug-in. The political guy loved the shop vac thing. Otherwise, he doesn't like music. Aren't we just too self-invested? If we could make a movie that was just a mirror reflection on the screen, it would be well received. Hated by many, loved by others, but viewed nonetheless.
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malcooning
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Re: In Sync Animation

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User767 wrote:If we could make a movie that was just a mirror reflection on the screen, it would be well received. Hated by many, loved by others, but viewed nonetheless.
I'd be excited to see the result if you took this as the motivation for your next film.
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Re: In Sync Animation

Post by Paul Fierlinger »

The best animated films are the ones based on the animator's intimate knowledge of the subject. The most mediocre ones are the fantasy kind like that first one which started off this debate, and I suspect that those fantasies are not personal ones at all but just panderings towards what the author believes to be fantasies of mass appeal.
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Re: In Sync Animation

Post by D.T. Nethery »

malcooning wrote:I don't understand how the first video syncs with sounds. Maybe you can elaborate?
Regardless of that, I found in it a lot of stylization, atmosphere and polish, but found no story or heart.

The 2nd video irritated me so much, I had to stop it after a few seconds. I personally don't see the point in animating the lyrics of a song. I just don't. Plus, what a horrid song...

If syncing to sound is what you're after, I recommend looking back. There are masterful examples of such approach.
Here's something to begin with:
Great examples from Norman Mclaren's work.

Going back further we find how even the old term "Mickey Mousing" (i.e close synchronization to sound) had it's origin:

http://afilmla.blogspot.com/search/label/Barsheets" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;




User767 wrote:

One of the things that annoys me about TVP is the audio handling. It doesn't make it easy to synch with a musical beat.

How so ?

The Timeline Notes in TVP are not too different in principle from the old paper Bar Sheets that notated the musical beats for the animators:

Image
Thru_The_Mirror_Bar_Sheet.jpg
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Re: In Sync Animation

Post by User767 »

D.T. Nethery wrote:How so ?

The Timeline Notes in TVP are not too different in principle from the old paper Bar Sheets that notated the musical beats for the animators:
User767 wrote:... Just another thing to work around. (I prefer a pseudo tape scrubbing sound)
TVP's repeat staccato sound when scrubbing drives me nuts-especially when I'm doing something to music. Most of the people I've worked with don't seem to like it either. It's nice to hear the dynamics of the music relative to the animation.

I still make bar sheets when I can get the sheet music. Often, I'm just supplied with a finished track to work with. Occasionally, I can get the paper, a click track, and assorted mixes. It certainly does make things easier for me.

Animo used to have "SoundBreakDown", which was a fairly nice way to deal with the audio planning. I think that's been included in the current version of Harmony somehow.

I'd appreciate it if sound were dealt with on a 'sub-frame' level. Now, I guess I need to find prior examples. Though I don't think anyone here cared anyway.
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Re: In Sync Animation

Post by Gochris1 »

If you don't like the staccato sound you get when scrubbing TV Paint's timeline, try using your editing software as a sound track reader. I use Vegas 4 to edit with. When I scrub sound back and forth, I don't hear a staccato, I hear the sound playing backwards and forwards.

1. Make sure your editing software and TV paint are both using the same frame rate
2. Scrub the sound until you find the exact beat or note or sound effect or dialogue that you want to sync the animation to
3. Write down the frame number where you want the animation to sync to the sound
4. In TV Paint, make sure the animation happens on the frame number you wrote down
5. At this point, the sound and animation should be in sync
6. This allows you to have a friend do track your reading while you do other things, like sleep.
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