How to hold camera keyframes?

[D.T. Nethery]

Some weeks ago I finally tried to use the camera in TVP, only to find that it only can do movements from A to B - not from A to B to C and so on. This means it's practically useless for me. Plus, I find TVP's way of setting keys very akwark and counter-intuitive. Instead, I export Quicktimes and do the camera work in Anime Studio, where it's a matter of seconds only.

I think there is room for improving the Camera Tool , but it can in fact do camera movements from positions A - to - B- to - C , etc. , not only from A - to - B . The more moves within a single scene the more complicated it is and getting used to setting the "hold" points and the slow-ins/slow-outs can be tricky, but it can be done.

Here is a simple A - to - B - to - C move I did on a stock photo of a skyline (standing in as a "Pan BG" ) . This only took 5 minutes start to finish. There is no sophistication in the move , but simply for demonstration purposes to show how the hold points are set on the Profile Editor graph.

A_B_C_Camera_Move.jpg (70.01 KiB) Viewed 23915 times

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[slowtiger]

click anywhere on the path between the start and the end of the path, and you will generate an intermediate 3rd point,

A good example what I call counter-intuitive. In AS, I can create keys in whatever fashion I like, copy them, paste them far beyond my original area, and so on. Also, but that might be a very rare problem: I tried to do a pan from A to B to exactly A again and found it impossible to grab anything in the project window which allowed me to adjust, because all the little squares where on top of each other.

The AS approach suits me better, I have to change tools more often or us key combo modifiers, but I can click anywhere on the screen to move stuff. Bear in mind that decreasing eye sight becomes a factor, and too small GUI elements are hard to hit.

[Edit] Thx David! I see two points here: so I have to open the profile editor first - does it not work with just ging to the keyframe in the normal timeline? And 5 minutes is still much longer than the maybe 1 or 2 in AS - I urge everybody to install their trial, don't just believe me.

(Yes, I know, besides all problems of GUI design and implementation there's also the mine field of copying other's solutions. In GUI design I'm all for blatant stealing because nothing but the best solution belongs into every software. But I'm just the complaining customer here, not the company who has to pay the lawyers in case of conflict ...)

And AS isn't a perfect program, in fact I think their main user interface was best in version 6, and after that they changed some stuff for the worse.

[Animark]

I'm curious; are there other TVPainters who can operate the camera tools to their satisfaction?

I using the camera tool very often, but I don't love it. I don't like how to handle more complex movements like D. T. Nethery explained but have to do it again and again, because I don't like even more a workflow like slowtiger described, where I have to render my animation and change my software for every look at my animation with camera movements.

Improvement of the timing profile of camera, keyframer and multiplane camera is really the number 1 on my wishlist of TVPaint features. We have discussed it here:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6076" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is also not so funny to make a zoom where the camera holds exactly it's center. It's starts when you want to create the second position exactly on the same position like the first. Maybe I am wrong, but you have to first create it at another position before you move it to the wanted position. Then try to adjust the position you don't have selected at that moment. Maybe I am wrong again, but I think first you have to move the selected position to a new position. Only then you are able to grab the other position to adjust it. Then you have to move the first position back to it's former position.

Yeah, and then try to teach that to young animators .

[Elodie]

This thread is really interesting ! Thank you all for putting in the light the things you like and dislike with the different cameras in TVPaint !

It is also not so funny to make a zoom where the camera holds exactly it's center. It's starts when you want to create the second position exactly on the same position like the first. Maybe I am wrong, but you have to first create it at another position before you move it to the wanted position. Then try to adjust the position you don't have selected at that moment. Maybe I am wrong again, but I think first you have to move the selected position to a new position. Only then you are able to grab the other position to adjust it. Then you have to move the first position back to it's former position.

I totally agree with you Markus. And I underrstand your pain for teaching that to youg animatores (and to "not-so-young-anymore animators too... ).

Personally, here is the way I use the diferent cameras (and how I teach them) :
- the camera tool is just a tool to imagine quickly a camera move during the animatic step. For me, it's not at all a post-production tool, but a pre-prod tool. Evenutally, I also use it as a safe area, in order to have more free space for animation and drawing : I know that only the camera's point of view will be the final output, and that can be very useful.
- the Keyframer is used only when I want to move just one element, not more. Usually, it's an animation in loop (a walking character, a fly, etc...).
- the Multiplan camera is used when I need to move several elements at the same time, but a little bit differently (for example, on a pan : objects in foreground will move faster than objects in the background). I also like to use it for the video tutorials, when I zoom in the image (then I set all the layers with a depth at 0).

Currently, the Multiplan camera is my favorite one. Some details are still getting me nervous (I.e : if you use the undo while using the camera multiplan FX, just in order to cancel the last key you added, it will cancel all your keys !) and I think that some details in its use could be improved (especially the possibility to choose the plan / layer you want to move). But, for me, this is most useful camera.

[ZigOtto]

I'm curious; are there other TVPainters who can operate the camera tools to their satisfaction?

I use most often the keyframer for complex movings,
one target project, the "camera" project, and one or several (at different sizes) Source Project(s),
the camera tool is only used to early simulate the result idea, essencially for animatics,
or for simpler moving.
I use sometimes another trick by splitting the clip into several clips to truncate the A>B>C move and so
to manage separately more simple movings more precisely (and easily) A>B, then B>C.

some times ago, for a very sophisticated moving, I had to go with an old tvpa plugin, K-FramED
which was still working fine despite its advanced age, where I can set progress curves for each key/parameters (X, Y, Z, Angle, ...)

[ThomasR]

Thanks to all for the interesting explanations.

Elodie's statement, that the main camera is only for animatics was also my impression after fighting with it for a while.
D.T. Nethery's city skyline demo looked nice, but others like snowtiger have described, how uncomfortable it is to force this camera to do EXACTLY what is needed.
But also the TVPaint Tutorial papers dont promise more than being a quick animatic tool, as Elodie underlines again.

So next I will try the multiplane camera, see how that works.

Many thanks
Thomas

[Paul Fierlinger]

I would like someone to explain to me what it is in the Camera Tool that you find difficult to plot. Can someone give me an example? Because I find this camera actually very intuitive, including the need to start with the starting point and then position where I want to end up before I decide what to insert between those two points. After all, this is exactly how an animator plots out keyframes and inbetweens.

[ematecki]

1st post, a signature advertising "electronic cigarettes" => SPAM

[Elodie]

1st post, a signature advertising "electronic cigarettes" => SPAM

Ban

[Brusen]

Knowing that a lot of people talks bad about TvPaints Camera, I believe you need to do something about it.

In all productions I have worked on, we have been avoiding TvPaints camera functions and just used it for animation and storyboard. Even in the storyboard state, we have avoided using it, going to Aftereffects to control the camera better.
I suggest that you make an easy function, where you can just set a key, without having to go to the FX panel:

Like this:


Best regards Troels Brusen,

[D.T. Nethery]

I suggest that you make an easy function, where you can just set a key, without having to go to the FX panel:

Like this:

+1 .

[Sewie]

Absolutely +1!

[NathanOtano]

If i want a hold i just cut my clip (already animated) in parts to set each camera movement in the time of one clip with simple curves and holds. And it's clearer on the storyboard