They call it AFTER Effects for a reason..

[CartoonMonkey]

I think I just need to vent a little bit..

Ahem:

I just finished work on 2 minutes of animation that a fellow I know hired me to help out with. We had three animators using TVP, and the person managing the project insisted upon exporting every clip / scene as png sequences so that he could re-build the entire movie in After Effects. Why? So he could do some little background effects, tweak colors here and there and have some control. ( This person does not know or use TVPaint ) He spent the whole time complaining that TVP should do this, or TVP should do that, and should be closer to After Effects. I told this person, not to make the mistake of comparing the two at all.

After the three week project was finished, we had spent so much time counting png frames, and exporting single frames and quicktime movies for this person, that we spent less time animating in TVP overall. Such a shame. I believe the lesson was learned in the end, though.
I found it disruptive to have animators turned into peg exporting file clerks.

Having worked on my own for so long, it was really something to step into someone else's job and have some new method of working explained, that seemed totally backwards.

Do you work with After Effects and TVP together in your workplace? Do you find it frustrating?

I'm finding more and more that I don't need any Adobe software for what I do. TVP can do it all!
Any thoughts or comments appreciated..!

[skomdra]

I do work with the After Effects for preproduction, specially when I need to do some animatic quickly, which just needs some simple camera movements, characters flying around or even simple movement done with wonderful duik ik script, and when I time things more or less right, I use it as a reference in TVP so I can spend more time on trying different things. It opens more possibilities then just do it in TVP from scratch, but the only reason I am doing it is because of speed and no need to render all the time, if I would use the similar workflow in TVP, for example, with a help of the Keyframer. Sometimes, since I am animator/director/producer when I put my director's hat I don't need to spend hours drawing, I just want to see the possible result in the shortest time possible, so I can chose what works best for the particular scene. In the postproduction I use the After effects as well for camera (or layer panning, movement) . I did ask long time ago for more advanced camera movement, and I know a lot of cool stuff you can create with the keyframer if you find camera in TVP insufficient, but sorry, camera control, and movement of layers simply work better in After effects for me. Sometimes I lost more time just to try to recreate everything I have in mind by using effects in TVP, then, like it or no, I end up using AE. And I do hate Adobe, just to be clear, and it has to be really complicated shot for me to reach for it. Like, shots with long complicated pans and with huge background, not a chance I will do it in TVP, tried it already, too slow, too unpredictable. (although, since Paul was today commenting how my machine is very slow comparing to his, maybe with faster computer I would not find it so tedious.) Last but not least, sometimes for color correction purpose I use Photoshop adjustment layers, and by some sort of compatibility between AE and PS I can easily apply the same color shade to the whole shot, or series of shots, without any problem. I still don't know how exactly I should use those color effects in TVP, maybe I should learn, but for now, they are bit confusing and I am using PS for years and I know how to accomplish what I want with color adjustments. And, apart from that, I am using 3D software when I need to do a lot of perspective rotation or solid objects, since I don't want to end up spending most of my time figuring out perspective problems instead of directing the film, but this is some other subject, considering your last sentence which I totally agree with, that TVP can do it all, but must you constrain yourself only on one software, or try to use what works for you from different tools, and focus to make your work better and more efficient?

[slowtiger]

I don't even own AFX, but used it 10 yrs ago. In my workflow:
TVP is for animation,
Anime Studio is for camera stuff,
AFX is for colour tweaking and effects (if a project ever needs this, I'd hire someone to do this.)
Of course it's nice to have non-destructive colour correction and other stuff. But instead of that "we'll fix all this in the end in AFX" I prefer "plan ahead and do some test shots, then stick to those settings".

[Elodie]

But instead of that "we'll fix all this in the end in AFX" I prefer "plan ahead and do some test shots, then stick to those settings".

The wiseman has spoken !

=D

[slowtiger]

Yes, my age shows ... plus I entered professional animation when it was still done without computers, and not many options to change anything in the end.

[Fabrice]

Gobelins films are mostly done in TVPaint + After Effect for some compositing additions.
It doesn't matter as long as tools are understood for what they do.

[slowtiger]

I appreciate what some people are able to do with After FX. Quite often I'm disappointed with my own backgrounds, and my choice of colours: it's all too flat, too much picture-book like. What I do is to render a frame and treat it in Photoshop: enhance contrast, darken a lot, saturate or de-saturate, until it looks like I imagined it. Then I go back to TVP and change what's needed.

[Lukas]

We use TVPaint / Anime Studio Pro / After Effects / Photoshop.

• TVP is really good for hand drawn animation, there's no software that comes even close.
• ASP is really good at giving you free in-betweens (something that can take up an entire day in TVP can be done in a few minutes in ASP, this is also the other way around though)
• AE gives you a LOT of control which is sometimes nice to have. For example, tweaking colors is horrible to do in TVP. The FX stack is a pain to work with.
• PS has better drawing features for backgrounds and designs, allthough TVPaint has some features that beat PS (sketch panel, anim brushes), PS has a lot more to offer

I think it's best not to stick with 1 piece of software, use what gives you the best result the fastest.

[Fabrice]

PS has better drawing features for backgrounds and designs, allthough TVPaint has some features that beat PS (sketch panel, anim brushes), PS has a lot more to offer

Please can you give me more details ? (some are obvious : stencils/mask, working outside of the project, ok ... but what else ?)
That might help us.

[slowtiger]

TVP is superior for the drawing part. I never liked the brushes in PS, plus PS is a lot less responsive than TVP.

That said, I still use PS for colour corrections. Maybe it's just habit, but the controls in TVP's FX stack are beyond my understanding. I never used the curves, only the simple colour adjust. And I like PS' concept of FX layers which are non-destructive.

Two drawing tools of PS I miss in TVP:
1. Dodge/Burn. I use this a lot to enhance contrast, or level out scans.
2. PS' method of a half-opaque tool is different from TVP's way: multiple strokes add up, instead of doing nothing in TVP.

[ematecki]

Two drawing tools of PS I miss in TVP:
1. Dodge/Burn. I use this a lot to enhance contrast, or level out scans.

Burn and Dodge DO exist as painting mode.

2. PS' method of a half-opaque tool is different from TVP's way: multiple strokes add up, instead of doing nothing in TVP.

Try checking "Drying" in the tool, that should do it.

[slowtiger]

Drying - a-HA! Works!

Dodge and Burn exsist as painting mode, but the tool in PS is more selective since I can apply to shadows/middle tones/lights separately, which does a great job of increasing the contrast.

[Fabrice]

Drying - a-HA! Works!

Dodge and Burn exsist as painting mode, but the tool in PS is more selective since I can apply to shadows/middle tones/lights separately, which does a great job of increasing the contrast.

interesting.

[Lukas]

PS has better drawing features for backgrounds and designs, allthough TVPaint has some features that beat PS (sketch panel, anim brushes), PS has a lot more to offer

Please can you give me more details ? (some are obvious : stencils/mask, working outside of the project, ok ... but what else ?)
That might help us.

Sure Here's some of the first things that come to mind.
Of course TVPaint is a different tool than Photoshop and has many cool features that Photoshop doesn't have, but there's many tools that are similar and those often work better in Photoshop, so looking at them couldn't hurt.

Lasso tool:
In PS you can easily add to (shift) and subtract from (alt) your selection. The cursor shows what you are doing.
Also the way the selection line looks is a bit more sophisticated in PS. The way the line blinks gives me a bit of a headache.
When panning a selection, it crops the selection to existing pixels, and you can move it around as if it’s a different layer (it doesn’t add anything to the selection), but if you deselect stuff it’s back into the layer again.
(See attached image)

Colorpicking in easier:
Hold <alt> for colorpicker pick, release <alt> to go back to previous tool
Colorring with previous color, current color during picking.
Interface showing A / B color is more clear.
Ability to pick only current layer (ignoring opacity and blending modes, this is possible trough scripting but would be nice to work out of the box)
People wanting it to be easier: http://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6852" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(See attached image)

Clipping masks:
http://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6866" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Groups:
Unlimited groups (TVP has only 12)
Ability to put groups inside of groups
Editing a group to edit all layers (Transform for example)
Use a clipping mask on a group
You can use color labels seperately from groups

Eraser:
In TVP you can erase with a regular brush (which is cool!), but if there would ALSO be an eraser it would be able to remember its settings. So if you’ve made your eraser bigger, and go back to a brush, make the brush smaller, and go back to the eraser, the eraser would still be bigger.

Brush size:
In Photoshop you can see the size of your brush in the cursor. Even if it’s pressure sentive. And can easily adjust the size with [ and ]. (Adjusting brush size in TVP with shortcuts doesn’t work very well)

Shortcuts:
Shortcuts are more intuitive, making shortcuts in TVPaint is hard.
http://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6724" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3D reference:
Ability to import 3D objects as reference

Rotate scale etc results:
Rotation etc results are better in PS
(see attached image)

[Elodie]

Thank you Lukas for your list

In PS you can easily add to (shift) and subtract from (alt) your selection. The cursor shows what you are doing.

Concerning the ability to "switch" modes (add / subtract), using the right click isn't it easier ? It works great with the freehand selection, rectangle selection, etc.. (only for the Bezier and the B-Spline it can be difficult, I must admit).

About the cursor, I think that could be added, because when you use the zoom tool, if you right click in the drawing space, the cursor change. So, that should be possible with the selection tool.

Hold <alt> for colorpicker pick, release <alt> to go back to previous tool

Not possible

Colorring with previous color, current color during picking.

What do you mean ? O_o

Ability to pick only current layer (ignoring opacity and blending modes, this is possible trough scripting but would be nice to work out of the box)

Ok, it's noted.

People wanting it to be easier: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6852

Yes, it's noted

Clipping masks:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6866

Ok

Unlimited groups (TVP has only 12)

Looks interesting, but I don't know if it's possible to add.

Ability to put groups inside of groups

Not possible in the current architecture of TVPaint

Editing a group to edit all layers (Transform for example)

Already done

Use a clipping mask on a group

Could you explain more ?

You can use color labels seperately from groups

Do you mean the color groups for clips or image marker ?
If so, I agree with you, but I don't know if it's possible.

Eraser:
In TVP you can erase with a regular brush (which is cool!), but if there would ALSO be an eraser it would be able to remember its settings. So if you’ve made your eraser bigger, and go back to a brush, make the brush smaller, and go back to the eraser, the eraser would still be bigger.

Too intrusive. It depends on the way people work. For example, someone who just want to erase a little line in a drawing won't agree with your "bigger eraser"

Brush size:
In Photoshop you can see the size of your brush in the cursor. Even if it’s pressure sentive.

Personally, it makes me nut. You see a big shape and finally, you draw a tiny little dot... That's unsane

And can easily adjust the size with [ and ]. (Adjusting brush size in TVP with shortcuts doesn’t work very well)

Never had any problem by using the mouse scrolling or + and - or the hotkey Z....

Shortcuts:
Shortcuts are more intuitive, making shortcuts in TVPaint is hard.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6724

Ok, noted.

3D reference:
Ability to import 3D objects as reference

Impossible in the current architecture of TVPaint.

3D reference:
Ability to import 3D objects as reference

In fact, if I'm not totally wrong, Photoshop is not a 100% bitmap software. Its layers are kind of vectorial layers, but inside these layers, you can draw in bitmap.
That's why you can move layers out of the drawing space (contrary to TVPaint). And that's also why you can rotate images without losing quality (contrary to TVPaint).
It's just like when you load a JPG in Flash and then, rotate it in Flash : you won't lose quality neither, just because the image is now considered as a vectorial object.

Layers in TVPaint are 100% bitmap and so, if you modify pixels, you lose quality, especially if you don't use AAliasing modes.