Quality change in images

[djsolomon]

Hi,

I'm working on a film and I've noticed that the quality of some of my line work has been changing. The longer I work on a file, the more drastic the changes become.

Some of my lines become blurry, and some become pixelated. The newest addition, is a thickened line.

This is an example of a pixelated picture. I previously went back and retraced the image with the same solid pen tool to fix the problem, but when I reopened the file, the lines became blurry as if it was done with some sort of airbrush.

dude in chair.png (44.28 KiB) Viewed 33423 times

And this is an example of my lines becoming thicker upon reopening a file. Not every image changes, but I've checked an older version of the file and the frames I have here originally had the same line thickness

baby lines.png (39.53 KiB) Viewed 31005 times

I have been manually retracing all of the problematic frames, but this seems to be a reoccurring problem in all the different files I am working with.

I am also suspecting that when I copy and paste layers the images become blurry or pixelated.

Does someone know how I can retain the image quality in my work?
Also, is there some way to set the dpi in Tvp?

I use the standard 'pen' brush, opacity 100%, power 100% (on C, none), set to size 4.00, anti-aliasing checked, no drying, no gradient.
TvPaint 10 Pro, 64 bits

Thanks!

[D.T. Nethery]

Does someone know how I can retain the image quality in my work?
Also, is there some way to set the dpi in Tvp?

The issue about "DPI" has been discussed before. DPI is an arbitrary unit and doesn't say how much information is stored in your file. It only defines how the information from the file is spread on your printer. Remember that DPI is an indication to explain to your printer how many 'dots' are needed per inch to print at certain sizes.

The way it is explained in the TVPaint FAQ :

"DPI only matters when you're printing things out. DPI is used to indicate how dense the image resolution will be when you will print your illustration. The resolution is measured in Dots Per Inch, and the higher the DPI rating, the finer the detail the printer will attempt to print.

In animation, DPI resolution is usually irrelevant since you don't print animation. Worrying about DPI in an animation is like worrying about FPS (Frame per second) in a still illustration."

It took me a while to get my head around this idea of DPI , too , and be able to explain it to my students who also ask questions about "setting the DPI in TVPaint" , so I have a number of these topics bookmarked.

See :

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6871&p=61693" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5687" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4160" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6374" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6281" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=388" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


An article referred to in one of the above threads:

The Myth of DPI:
http://www.rideau-info.com/photos/mythdpi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DPI calculator (if you are planning to do illustrations in TVPaint and PRINT them) -
http://www.hdri.at/dpirechner/dpirechner_en.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


So again, DPI only has reference to work that is intended for printing. With TVPaint what matters is the overall project size resolution. It doesn't matter if your project size resolution is 1280 x 720 , or 1920 x 1080 or 2048 x 1536 , it's always going to be 72 DPI in TVPaint. Anything that is displayed on a computer screen in TVPaint is 72 DPI.


The issue of the line quality being degraded may be because you are applying a lot of transformations to the line art (using Transform Tool to re-size /rotate the artwork) That has also been discussed on the forum in the past , most recently here:

http://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7081" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


For me the best practice is : work at highest resolution possible from the start . If your final output is going to be 1280 x 720 HDTV resolution I'd suggest working at 2x the resolution: 2560 x 1440 . Then down-scaling to final intended resolution of 1280 x 720 will retain better line quality. Avoid excessive use of Transformation Tool on final line (clean-up) artwork . I tend to use Transformation Tool (resize/rotate) on rough animation drawings , but once the roughs are tied down sufficiently to say that the rough animation is "OK to Clean-Up" I would try not to use the Transformation Tool too much on clean-up line art work. When you do use the Transformation Tool make sure it's set to BEST or "Smart" anti-aliasing quality.




.

[djsolomon]

thanks for your lengthy response...
Yo Fabrice-
why have tools in the program that mess up your work? Not every animator retraces their first pass...( getting rid of original transformed images)
everything in photoshop enhances your work- please when you revise your manual WARN people that the tools in your toolbox might not work and
tell them not to use them- why are they there though?????? make them work or get rid of them....

debra solomon

[Fabrice]

thanks for your lengthy response...
Yo Fabrice-
why have tools in the program that mess up your work? Not every animator retraces their first pass...( getting rid of original transformed images)
everything in photoshop enhances your work- please when you revise your manual WARN people that the tools in your toolbox might not work and
tell them not to use them- why are they there though?????? make them work or get rid of them....

debra solomon

hi Debra,

Which tool are you talking about ?

[djsolomon]

Hi Fabrice,

It has been mentioned before on the forum that there are problems with the Cutbrush,Animbrush, and transform tools. In the replies it was written that such tools aren't meant for 'Final Work".
If this is the case, users MUST BE WARNED that your cutbrush doesn't work and will leave your image(s) PIXELATED.

Many animators make small corrections to their first pass and do not retrace. Either fix the cutbrush so it works properly, or remove it from the program.

The cutbrush is used for many things like rotating, cutting, pasting etc., and an animator could use it countless times. If everytime you use it, it pixelates, you're left with a huge problem. This ABSOLUTELY needs to be fixed.

Please take this as constructive criticism. It is in my interest as well that your program be made better.

Debra

[Léo]

The transform tools works in the same way in photoshop and many other software (gimp, artrage, painter, ...) : if you use it several times, it pixelates everything, and sometimes some animators need it like this.

Did you try the various settings offered ? none, medium, best, smart ... ?
They all have a different purpose, and looking at your images, I think you might not have selected the good one.

[djsolomon]

Hi Leo - first "Some animators need it like this"? who needs pixelation in their work- no one i know... do YOU like pixelation in your work that will be shown in theaters on huge screens???

the transform tool is SUPPOSED to work like photoshop but alas it does not - in photoshop you do not have choose a setting for smoothing- it just does the transform
and the line is NEVER pixelated- i think it should be the same in TVPAINT- especially as there is not a usable manual...that warns people that the tools are only half working...

I realize on this forum is complete heresy to criticize the software but i think the forum should be open and able to accommodate honest and reality based suggestions
and that is what this is- the transform tool needs improvements .

debra solomon

[bolty]

The transform tools works in the same way in photoshop and many other software (gimp, artrage, painter, ...) : if you use it several times, it pixelates everything, and sometimes some animators need it like this.

Did you try the various settings offered ? none, medium, best, smart ... ?
They all have a different purpose, and looking at your images, I think you might not have selected the good one.

I've been having similar problems with the software, and I find it very problematic.

Let's say even if some animators may 'need it like this', pixelating should be an OPTION and not a default effect. I have yet to see anyone prefer to animate a film that pixelates as they work, and I can't see why the general public that uses this program and wants to pixelate their work would want it to happen without any control over it.

As for the photoshop reference, if you work in .psd your work should not pixelate over time. Tvpx will and from my experience, the pixelating happens faster than if you were working in jpeg.

I had an object i wanted to rotate in my background for one of my pieces, and I made it into an animbrush but the final effect was gross. the edges were gross, and colours got distorted, In the end i had to bring it into another program to composite. I was very disappointed about that as it made the scene a lot more difficult to compile. I wish there was something that could've warned me about the pixelating beforehand at the very least.

And yes. I have tried to recreate the same movements from my background but this time I played with the smooth settings. It didn't really help...

[furushil]

How about this: Try to take a picture in Photoshop and use the transformation tool to make it half the size and hit enter. Now use the transformation tool and get it bigger to the original size. The image gets blurry and Photoshop does not warn you that this will happen.It is impossible to retain the same quality (without using smart objects).
And in Photoshop you can choose settings for smoothing when you resize your project through the menu. It is just always on "best". Just like in TVpaint.

Just leave the smoothing option on "smart" when you transform things.
Best thing to do is to save your cut-brush in a tool panel,once you cut something out -or use the tool bin.
Don't cut out something over and over again, after you have rotated and placed your cutout on the "paper". That way the quality gets lower and lower

You will always have some sort of pixelation as TVpaint is a pixel based program .

[D.T. Nethery]

It has been mentioned before on the forum that there are problems with the Cutbrush,Animbrush, and transform tools. In the replies it was written that such tools aren't meant for 'Final Work".

That reply was from me on the other topic discussing the jaggy line quality issue and I said that it's been my practice to not use the Transform Tools excessively on final line art work. I've never seen anything official from TVPaint saying that "such tools aren't meant for Final Work" .

Debra, I suspect there may be more than one issue going on with your drawings , which really look EXCESSIVELY jaggy in the examples you uploaded. I've never had results like that , even if I do use the Transform Tool a lot . The results I get from using the Transform Tool (set to Best or Smart anti-aliasing) sometimes result in minor line quality degradation, but nothing as drastic as what you posted above. Something is not right ...

What is the original project size you are working at ? (800 x 600 ? 1280 x 720 ? or what ... ? ) And are you using the Transform tools a lot on the drawings ? Does the jagged line quality only occur after using the Transform Tool or do you also notice it on drawings where you haven't used the Transform Tool ?

[slowtiger]

I really wonder about what people expect from a software. The copy of a copy of a copy can't be of the same quality as the original. If you do this a lot, you have to live with the deteriorating quality of each successive copy. This is true with paper, and it is true with bitmaps as well.

Maybe you should re-evaluate your workflow. If I use the transform tool a lot while animating, I don't care much about line quality. Instead I create a new layer where I copy & transform always from the source, following the roughs. Transforming finished and coloured stuff is not much of a problem because nobody notices one odd line within animation.

Take care to do all your adjustments within the transformation tool before hitting apply. Quality is better when all calculations are done at once, instead of first changing size, apply, then rotate, apply, then resize again, apply, etc.

Instead of using the transform tool, you can get the same result with the keyframer FX. This even has the advantage of readjustment of each key until you're satisfied. The final render ("apply") is done always from the source, meaning each frame is only calculated once.

Also have a close look to all quality settings of the different tools. Don't blame the software if you forgot to choose the right setting.

[D.T. Nethery]

I really wonder about what people expect from a software. The copy of a copy of a copy can't be of the same quality as the original. If you do this a lot, you have to live with the deteriorating quality of each successive copy. This is true with paper, and it is true with bitmaps as well.

Yes, that is true and was a point made in the other topic as well. In the days of working with pencil on paper it was sometimes better to simply put a fresh piece of paper down and re-draw a drawing that had been excessively revised (re-pegged multiple times, multiple erasures, cutting & pasting parts of the drawing with Exacto knife, tape , and using liquid paper correction fluid to try to hide the "surgery" marks from the xerox machine). Those kind of drawings could start to look very chewed up after a while, the line quality quickly going downhill after the third or fourth time it had been erased, so if the desire was to have a sharp, pristine line quality there was really nothing to do, but put down a fresh sheet of paper over the old chewed drawing and re-draw it. Better (and faster) to just redraw it than fighting against the roughed up surface of paper that had been erased too many times. In principle it's basically the same.

If the desire is for lines that can be infinitely cut/pasted/rotated and scaled up and down with no change to the line then go vector instead of bitmap. You'll give up other things if you go vector , but you won't have any problem with the line quality being degraded by multiple transformations.

[idragosani]

As for the photoshop reference, if you work in .psd your work should not pixelate over time. Tvpx will and from my experience, the pixelating happens faster than if you were working in jpeg.

I had an object i wanted to rotate in my background for one of my pieces, and I made it into an animbrush but the final effect was gross. the edges were gross, and colours got distorted, In the end i had to bring it into another program to composite. I was very disappointed about that as it made the scene a lot more difficult to compile. I wish there was something that could've warned me about the pixelating beforehand at the very least.

Keep in mind that TVPaint is a raster-based program, rotation of images is always going to result in some distortion (even worse when you are not rotating on 90 degree boundaries). It's possible PS might vectorize things (smart objects?) for some kinds of transforms. And rotating a previously rotated raster image is going to make the distortion worse. I've only rotated something to adjust it slightly (like a head that needed to be tweaked), I very rarely try to animate transforms, because they will distort. You will have better luck animating the rotations and transformations by hand or using a vector application for detailed transformations. At the very worst, use the transformation for rough images and then redraw the final versions, as DT Nethery has suggested.

[Léo]

Hi Leo - first "Some animators need it like this"? who needs pixelation in their work- no one i know... do YOU like pixelation in your work that will be shown in theaters on huge screens???

Hi Debra, please take no offense of my post, it was not my intention.
Sometimes, the "none" mode is usefull for some kind of works and some kind of brushes.


Here are some examples:

With this kind of stroke, the "None" mode gives the best results after several apply :
(click to enlarge and see the results)

Pixel art drawings and animations.

[djsolomon]

Hi Leo,
Thanks for your post! If you look at my original post, you'll see that the artwork looks like none of the line qualities you have so nicely posted for me.
So far, no one has been able to tell me why I am getting this awful line quality.


Thanks again Leo!

Debra Solomon