What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

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Zetariver
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What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by Zetariver »

Hello. I want to find unpainted areas in TVPaint. See pictures below.
1.jpg
1.jpg (22.96 KiB) Viewed 33046 times
There are unpainted areas in this saturated color painting, but it's hard to find where it is.
So, I always use adjustment layer in Photoshop, threshold adjustment layer, and it makes it really easy to find unpainted areas.

Like this.
Threshold Adjustment Layer opacity = 70%
2.jpg
2.jpg (15.24 KiB) Viewed 33046 times
Threshold Adjustment Layer opacity =100%
3.jpg
3.jpg (4.46 KiB) Viewed 33046 times
I can find unpainted areas,white dots,thanks to adjustment layer, but there is no adjustment layer in TVPaint,
so I wanna ask, what do you think is the best way to find those unpainted areas in TVPaint?
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slowtiger
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Re: What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by slowtiger »

You can always change the BG colour to something not used in your colouring so you see the holes clearly.

To get all the little holes inside I can also select the transparent area outside, invert the selection, and draw a rectangle in colour mode "Behind". I think this can be made into a script?

I've noticed that rough lines on a lively (heavily detailed/textured) BG don't need to have all holes filled in animation.
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Zetariver
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Re: What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by Zetariver »

Thanx. It works. Behind mode and Drying option is new to me. I have never used such a interesting options.
And when I was waiting for answers, I found Svengali’s FigureFill plugin, seems it does the same thing. It's a great timesaver.
Zetariver
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Re: What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by Zetariver »

I thought it's good, but sorry. If I need to paint those kinda things, no.

There are holes, transparent areas. I draw red circle around them to make it much clear to see.
a.jpg
If I do invert-selection-painting, it means I can't find where the holes are, so I will paint inverted areas blindly using one color, like black in this case.
b.jpg
But,this is much better for me. I need to paint yellow on hair, dark green on clothes.
c.jpg
If I need to paint this simple drawing, it will be no problem, but If I need to paint much complicated things like colorful machine with lots of small parts,it will be bad. It will be nice if TVPaint has an option to darken opaque areas temporarily to paint. I thought it's possible because it has stencil display option, but seems not. 

RETAS STUDIO has this option, and Toon Boom has an option called Black Light. Both darken opaque area temporarily. It's a drawback.
http://www.clip-studio.com/clip_site/ho ... aku_00_003
Last edited by Zetariver on 26 Dec 2013, 14:36, edited 2 times in total.
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slowtiger
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Re: What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by slowtiger »

I don't need any help to find these areas - I know that any flood fill might fail in hair tips and the like. So I habitually get a big brush with the hair color, set to "behind", do one stroke, next frame, re-apply, and so on (or do a stroke on each frame when movement is fast). Repeat with 2 more colours and I'm done. Only takes me some 5 min more with 100 frames or so.

To avoid this I do my colouring on a separate layer with a good value for expand - 2 or 3 normally.
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Zetariver
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Re: What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by Zetariver »

I understand you slowtiger, but it will be much better if TVPaint gives us an option, and I think They can.RETAS and Toon Boom can do it.
I always makes these kinda small holes because I always use small pen tool and I can't find them if I don't use adjustment layer or something.
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slowtiger
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Re: What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by slowtiger »

It helps a lot if you at least try a different workflow before you call "drawback". Just sayin'.
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Zetariver
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Re: What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by Zetariver »

Yeah. Mature people won't think it's a drawback, but I am immature and lack technique to make up for it.
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neonnoodle
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Re: What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by neonnoodle »

You can do this in TVP just fine, same way as you'd do it in Photoshop. Instead of making an adjustment layer, use the FX panel "Scan Cleaner." Then, adjust the control points so that everything is made black. This adjustment is based on alpha, not color, so it won't confuse white for transparent. You can show/hide the FX layer using preview or checking/unchecking the box next to it in the FX panel, similarly to how you might use an adjustment layer in Photoshop.

BEFORE:
In this screengrab, the yellow arrows are pointing to little patches of white, not clear.
tvp1.png
AFTER:
In this screengrab, the red arrow points out the Scan Cleaner profile you must use. Note that the white areas indicated by the yellow arrows are now black, but the unpainted areas remain white, to show that they are clear.
tvp2.png
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Zetariver
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Re: What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by Zetariver »

Thank you neonnoodle. It works fine. It's really something like a threshold effect in Photoshop, but if fx preview is on, I can't paint. Can I assign shortcut key to toggling fx preview on and off?
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D.T. Nethery
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Re: What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by D.T. Nethery »

slowtiger wrote:You can always change the BG colour to something not used in your colouring so you see the holes clearly.

To get all the little holes inside I can also select the transparent area outside, invert the selection, and draw a rectangle in colour mode "Behind".
slowtiger wrote: I know that any flood fill might fail in hair tips and the like. So I habitually get a big brush with the hair color, set to "behind", do one stroke, next frame, re-apply, and so on (or do a stroke on each frame when movement is fast). Repeat with 2 more colours and I'm done. Only takes me some 5 min more with 100 frames or so.

To avoid this I do my colouring on a separate layer with a good value for expand - 2 or 3 normally.

This is what I do. As discussed in the other thread started by Zetariver , the character's line art and the colors are kept on separate layers. While doing the fill coloring the BG color may be changed to a color (such as hot pink or green ) which makes it easy to see gaps .

I also use the Filled Stroke tool set to Behind mode to make quick corrections to fill any noticeable gaps.
Filled Stroke Tool.png
Filled Stroke Tool.png (28.27 KiB) Viewed 33014 times
slowtiger wrote: I've noticed that rough lines on a lively (heavily detailed/textured) BG don't need to have all holes filled in animation.
This is a good point. Even with not so rough lines , if the character is moving and the background has an average amount of detail (i.e. with variety of textures and colors , not just a flat color card or gradient) it is unlikely that anyone will notice very small gaps that may have occurred when using the Flood Fill tool. Or if on the occasional frame the "Expand" value has caused a bit of color to leak outside the edge of the lines , if this is only for a few frames out of several dozen or hundred frames the average viewer will not be able to spot the frame where the leak occurs, when watching the scene at 24 FPS. This was also true of the old hand-painted cels, even in the classic Disney feature films which are still the gold standard for high-quality production values. If you ever had the opportunity to examine some of those hand-painted cels carefully you would sometimes find gaps in small areas , such as the areas that typically cause gaps for digital flood filling (the tapered end of a strand of hair , for example) . Also the occasional air bubble in the paint that causes a small "hole" in the cel color (usually only visible if back-lit) . These imperfections are visible if you stop to examine the cels with a sharp eye , one-by-one , but are in most cases not visible when the animation cels are combined with a BG and the scene is running at 24 FPS.

The following screen captures show an example of a student's clean-up and paint test (original rough animation by Eric Goldberg , from his book "Character Animation Crash Course" ) . The student cleaned-up and inbetweened the drawings and then the drawings were colored in TVPaint.

Image

Character level over green BG layer to help spot any gaps .

Image

When it is enlarged 250% we can see there are in fact some small gaps that the Flood Fill did not completely fill :

Image

But these are not visible in motion when the character layer is combined with the BG. (this is one frame with small gaps . The preceding frames and following frames have no gaps. This one drawing with small gaps is not going to be perceived when the scene is played at 24 FPS.)


Zetariver, I mention this not to in any way suggest that "sloppy", poor quality flood filling (with obvious visible gaps or leaks) should be considered acceptable , but simply to point out that in actual production you may find that certain small imperfections slip through on a regular basis and the average viewer never notices it. So don't worry about it more than you need to.

I think that the more limited the animation is , the more important it is to be sure there are no color gaps or leaks on individual frames, because those frames are likely to be repeated many times , so any gaps may cause noticeable "flashing" as those elements are repeated over and over, whereas with full animation if there are a handful of frames with small painting imperfections out of hundreds of frames that make up the entire scene it is much less likely that those minor imperfections will be noticed when the scene plays at full speed.
Last edited by D.T. Nethery on 26 Dec 2013, 18:35, edited 7 times in total.
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D.T. Nethery
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Re: What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by D.T. Nethery »

neonnoodle wrote:You can do this in TVP just fine, same way as you'd do it in Photoshop. Instead of making an adjustment layer, use the FX panel "Scan Cleaner." Then, adjust the control points so that everything is made black. This adjustment is based on alpha, not color, so it won't confuse white for transparent. You can show/hide the FX layer using preview or checking/unchecking the box next to it in the FX panel, similarly to how you might use an adjustment layer in Photoshop.

Thank you , Neonnoodle . This is a very good tip. I never tried using Scan Cleaner for this purpose before , but now that you have explained how to do this it makes perfect sense. Your suggested method is a quick and easy way to find areas that have not been filled.
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D.T. Nethery
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Re: What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by D.T. Nethery »

Zetariver,

The example image you posted :

Image

makes me question your insistence on using non-anti-aliased lines to draw your characters . How does this make it better to click-and-fill easily using the Flood Fill tool ? The small areas between the jaggedy lines in the example you posted are harder to fill smoothly than if the lines had been drawn with anti-aliasing enabled .

What resolution are you working at ? The jaggedy lines makes it seem as if you are working at a very low-resolution. I'd suggest using at least 1280 (1280 x 720 for 16:9 aspect or 1280 x 960 for 4:3 aspect ratio ; you can downscale the images later if you want the final output to be smaller , but the larger resolution will give better line quality in the original project ) . Use the pen tool with Anti-Aliasing enabled and also consider enabling the Smoothing in the Shape Settings panel .
Shape Settings SMOOTHING.png
Shape Settings SMOOTHING.png (15.12 KiB) Viewed 33012 times

.
Zetariver
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Re: What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by Zetariver »

Thank you for your advice, D.T. Nethery.Behind mode looks nice indeed.
I think that the more limited the animation is , the more important it is to be sure there are no color gaps or leaks on individual frames,
That's my case. I usually make limited animation whose FPS is 12 or something. I make flash animation, so to make it small, I need to use same animation over and over again, and add some interactivity, like letting viewers move animated characters via buttons using Action Script. That's my style.

The example image you posted makes me question your insistence on using non-anti-aliased lines to draw your characters . How does this make it better to click-and-fill easily using the Flood Fill tool ?
Yes. It is not so good in TVPaint, but Celsys software has good filling functions which can fill little holes with one brush stroke.
I use their software usually, so such a little holes does not matter for me, but you are right.
I need to think about it if I use TVPaint.
And that girl picture is low-resolution picture. I usually make animation that is bigger than 1024x768.
But anti-aliasing isn't my choice, because my After Effects setting can't handle anti-aliased images well. In addition, I am not good at cleaning up line art using anti-aliased pen. I always use eraser tool over and over again in cleaning up process, and it makes lots of garbage, but aliased pen and eraser won't make sucha garbage so much because its alpha value is always 255.It can save lots of time.
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D.T. Nethery
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Re: What is the best way to find unpainted area in TVPaint?

Post by D.T. Nethery »

Zetariver wrote:Thank you neonnoodle. It works fine. It's really something like a threshold effect in Photoshop, but if fx preview is on, I can't paint. Can I assign shortcut key to toggling fx preview on and off?
I think the easiest way to toggle the FX Preview on and off is simply to check and uncheck the preview box. The Scan Cleaner FX with the profile set to the parameters as shown will show the paint level in solid black, to reveal any unpainted gaps . Then uncheck the Preview box to enable being able to paint the gaps. (use the Filled Stroke tool set to Behind mode) .

Image

Image
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