My general experience with TVPaint

[Trumpatrick]

Dear TVpaint developers.

I have to get his of my chest. It's been brewing inside of me for years, so apologies in advance if I loose sight of internet etiquette here, but I believe it's also in your benefit to know how I feel about your program and community. Ever since I first opened up TVpaint, I really had to struggle to get into it. In my life, I've mastered many kinds of software, mostly without much frustration and difficulties. Once you've learned two or three pieces of software, you start to see a pattern, similar functionality, a general logic to how software works. This was never the case for me with TVpaint. Everything single thing is counter intuitive for me. I've spoken to people about this and met several people who defend the way TVpaint works, so sure, the software works fine for others. On the other hand, I have also met a lot of people who share my struggle with the software. The problem is, in the land of 2D animation software, TVpaint is one of the bigger players and there is no real alternative to it. Believe me, I've tried them all before committing to TVpaint. So after countless long hours of scratching my eyes out, I've finally started to feel at least a little bit comfortable with the program. Yes, I've accepted that there is no eraser in TVpaint. I've made numerous custom panels (up to a point where I've lost track of it all), to work around the fact that TVpaint resets your tools every time you switch between them. I have changed my shortcuts as much as possible to photoshop, to bring some logic in to my workflow. I've thrown out every panel that didn't make sense to me and I've learned to stay the hell away from the FX stack, because that thing is nasty and straight out of the 80's. In short, when I want to animate something, I use my own custom brushes, TVpaints light-table and timeline and that's about it. When I'm done, I get out of the software as soon as I can. Why? Because if frustrates me to the core.

A big part of what causes this frustration though, is the community here at the forum. Every single time I've tried to make a suggestion, or read other people make suggestion, it's like running into a brick wall. The reaction is always "why would you want that"? Or "why don't you use the functionality as it is now". Sometimes it seems a problem can't be fixed because of technical issues, but when you dig deeper, it turns out the developers just don't agree or like it just the way it is. Well, there is a reason for the issues I'm addressing, so please try to consider that at least. Often TVpaint complaints that changing this or that would take a long time to do. That could be, but I've paid a good sum of money for this software!

And then there's a few community members who always think it's necessary to jump into the discussion and kill it before it catches fire. People who seem to oppose every bit of change to the software and want to preserve it like it's some kind of piece of art that should remain in a museum. The risk being that in a short while from now, the software does indeed become something from another era. To be honest, because of how I feel, after a long debate with myself, I've decided not to update the software anymore. I'd rather keep my money in my pocket and wait for a piece of software to pop up that actually seems to go somewhere. By being so stubborn, TVpaint has created a huge hole in the market for other developers to jump into. And I'll be honest, when a new piece of 2D software does show up that is the least bit comparable to TVpaint, I'm out. Now I don't say this to be mean, because I do appreciate the time, effort and dedication the team has put into this software, but for me it's a dead end. Now if I felt like I was the only one who sees it this way, I would have kept my mouth shut. But after talking to other animators about the software and sharing an office space with others who use it and seeing how they experience it just like I do, I felt that I really had to share to thoughts on TVpaint.

Of course, you can point out instances where the software did get changed due to user made suggestions, or functions that do work like you would expect, but I'm not talking about that and I hope this post doesn't end up in defending the way TVpaint works now. I just hope that you read this and start realizing that TVpaint can earn more money and a bigger piece of the pie in terms of market once you would become more dynamic and open. I suspect there is a large group of people staying away from the software and this forum because of the same reasons I haven't been an active member here for years. Why would you invest in a piece of software and a group of people that don't want to go anywhere? Some of us at the studio are members of the BETA team for another program (which is not bitmap 2D based) and they actually implement a lot of the features we suggest and the program has made huge leaps because of it. (Of course, many suggestions didn't make it into that program, so I'm not expecting TVpaint to just implement everything the community suggests).But above all, they seem to be happy with the input. I just wish TVpaint would have the same attitude. This alone would make it a more satisfying user experience.

[Elodie]

I moved your topic as it is not really a topic about feature & improvement request, but about TVPaint in general.

I will answer it later.

[Trumpatrick]

Actually I think it was better to have it in the feature requests part of the forum, because my post isn't about technical support either and I think a lot less people visit this part of the forum. It's more about feature requests (and how people deal with that) so I would like to get input from people who frequent that part of the forum, not just TVpaint developers, so could you put it back?

[Joost]

A big part of what causes this frustration though, is the community here at the forum. Every single time I've tried to make a suggestion, or read other people make suggestion, it's like running into a brick wall. The reaction is always "why would you want that"? Or "why don't you use the functionality as it is now".

I recognise this problem...

[Paul Fierlinger]

+1. So why don't you adapt to the way it is now? I still want to know.

I follow NLE forums as well and there are many, many professional video editors who have to work with two or three different NLE software because of the nature of their business and I have yet to come across anyone of these people making requests of developers to completely (or even partially) switch the way they have arranged things to work just because the other company does it differently... the nature and expectations of professionals is to adapt to all hardware and software they have to use in the course of their carriers. People DO ask for one software to copy an innovation of another software that works better, but never have I heard anyone demand that a key command be changed because that's the way the other software has it. The same goes for camera equipment, automobile instrument panels, city ordinances, dog breeds... Jeez guys...

[Joost]

but never have I heard anyone demand that a key command be changed because that's the way the other software has it.

This sentence says everything. Sorry to say this but: You really don't understand the problem Paul.

[Paul Fierlinger]

No, I don't. I just like being an impossible pest.

[Trumpatrick]

+1. So why don't you adapt to the way it is now? I still want to know.

Well, let me try and explain it to you. Remember when some 30 years ago companies introduced 8 bit game consoles? Look what we have now, HD (and soon 4K) 3D game consoles that can produce graphics that equal television productions, while letting you chat with your friends and order a pizza through the internet, all at the same time. Who knows where we stand in another 30 years. You know how that happened? Exactly. Those guys didn't sit back and stare at their product, they thought of ways how to improve it, keep it relevant, keep up with the competition. Yes, every software has it's own way of doing things, that's a given. And with every piece of software I get into, I adapt. Sometimes though, something works in such a way that it feels like it could use improvement. In those cases I appeal to my common sense, to construct a suggestion that might make it better. In the first place, to hopefully help out my workflow, but also to help out the software and it's makers. This is a nice way of getting involved in the software you use and with many programs this can be a very satisfying experience. Not in the case of TVpaint though, hence my opening post. I like to get involved, because the makers should know what things need improving, to get a clear idea of where their product stands. Believe me, if I didn't care and if I didn't have affection with the product and it's makers, I wouldn't be here. To be honest, I can't believe this question coming from a software BETA tester, unless you focus on getting the bugs out of existing software.

I follow NLE forums as well and there are many, many professional video editors who have to work with two or three different NLE software because of the nature of their business and I have yet to come across anyone of these people making requests of developers to completely (or even partially) switch the way they have arranged things to work just because the other company does it differently... the nature and expectations of professionals is to adapt to all hardware and software they have to use in the course of their carriers. People DO ask for one software to copy an innovation of another software that works better, but never have I heard anyone demand that a key command be changed because that's the way the other software has it. The same goes for camera equipment, automobile instrument panels, city ordinances, dog breeds... Jeez guys...

Ok, let's keep that cmd request out of this discussion, because my post is not about that specifically. Although it is another fine example of the brick wall I mentioned and how much frustration it creates.

ps. The part about staring at the existing product is not aimed at the tvpaint developers.

[Paul Fierlinger]

Good. I'm glad you understand.

[Elodie]

First of all, thank you for taking the time to write such a big long text about TVPaint (the team and the software).
Looks like Lukas and Joost asked you to join them and bring your voice to this complaining choir. Fortunately, you are working together, so it's then easier to sing from the same song sheet.
Nevermind.

Please allow me anyway to defend TVPaint, but with concrete examples only. I will let other users giving their own subjective opinions about us.

A big part of what causes this frustration though, is the community here at the forum. Every single time I've tried to make a suggestion, or read other people make suggestion, it's like running into a brick wall. The reaction is always "why would you want that"? Or "why don't you use the functionality as it is now". Sometimes it seems a problem can't be fixed because of technical issues, but when you dig deeper, it turns out the developers just don't agree or like it just the way it is. Well, there is a reason for the issues I'm addressing, so please try to consider that at least. Often TVpaint complaints that changing this or that would take a long time to do. That could be, but I've paid a good sum of money for this software!

Asking "why" is the key of our job : some problems can be by-passed or may come from a misunderstanding.
When you ask for a feature, you are not asking for salt or bread. You are asking for someone among of 5 developers to spend time on something else than his current job (Developers are not sat on a chair, waiting for something to do : they are ALWAYS working on something). The least you can do is to explain why you need it. Your request must be calculated in time, in persons needed, in suitability, in feasibility, etc... As artists, you should know this : you always have to reconsider what you do / ask : is it really suitable, or do I just need to change my habits ? This is the same for developers : they spend time every days to reconsider their job and adapt it to new technologies (software AND hardware).

In August 2013, after the release of TVPaint 10.5, Mike created a chart where we add every requests made on the forum + all requests we have during trainings and demonstration all around the world.
So, in 10 months, we created 600 entries. 2 entries / 3 have been fixed or added (following if it's a bug or a feature).

Trumpatrick, you mention your own requests. I searched among your 24 messages and get those topics :

•About the "Untitled (1)" project : Fabrice and I agreed with all of you, even if it was not really a priority, there is something interesting : still in the to do list.
•When quitting TVP : we finally agreed with you because Lukas had good examples with other software and, trust me, you will enjoy it within few months
•Two of my biggest TVPaint frustrations : I agreed with this request. In 2012, we did not have our to do chart, so let me add it
•Taking drawings "off the pegs"? : not a request. Anyway, we helped you
•strange artifacts when opening windows file on mac : hmm, no more messages, but I imagine the problem was fixed ?
•Show actual brush you are working with : here, we couldn't access to your request, but Fabrice and I explained you why and proposed you a bypass solution (even if, I agree, it's not very comfortable to do so for all brushes)
•List of requests : an interesting list of request : I agreed most of them and explain other ones. Here again, our to do chart did not exist yet, but I can still add them.
•TVPaint 10: first impression : well, nice feedbacks here, nothing to add

Most of the time, we try to give an answer, an opinion, a reason etc... Not all requests are interesting, but at least, we read all of them.

Some examples of features added thanks to the forum in the last 3 years :
• Out-of-pegs and all improvements which follows (light table, flip options etc...)
• Fill inside option with a floodfill tool
• Publish storyboard in PDF
• Being able to give duration to your clips by stretching their duration
• Stopwatch
• Layer attenuation option
• Image mark panel (add the idea after a training and it evolves with the forum)
• Line colorize FX
• Change color and change tint FX
• Smooth line options
• All new george functions (Thank you Mads Juul )
• "Hand flip" with key + stylus
• HSV mode in the color palette
• Being able to resize the color palette (except in cursor mode)
• Name instances
• having a graphic element telling you "you are not playing at the good framerate"
• Save alarm
• Make bookmarks visible
• Embed custom panels in project
• To and Fro flip with H and J
• Anti aliasing Smart for transform tools (should be add also for custom brushes)
• Recompute instances with threshold
• Use colour group for sound
• Create new instances automatically when you draw in the timeline
• Faux-fixe options (random + ping pong)
• Bigger squares in the bin tab of the color palette
• Screen recorder (for tutorials and to explain what's going wrong with TVPaint )
• etc...

Most options here were added or improved during TVPaint 10 / 10.5 live, without asking you to pay something more.

We had bad experiences (the first version of TVPaint 10 on Mac 64 bit - which is now working very well- / or the first release of TVPaint 10.5, which was awfully buggy, but was fixed within a week or two), but globally, the software always evolves following our users' requests and our own look on the animation industry.

And then there's a few community members who always think it's necessary to jump into the discussion and kill it before it catches fire. People who seem to oppose every bit of change to the software and want to preserve it like it's some kind of piece of art that should remain in a museum. The risk being that in a short while from now, the software does indeed become something from another era.

Looks like you are talking about some Beta tester (I say "looks like", because as Joost who prefers to use the term "somebody", you prefer to stays evasive : please if you want to complain about someone, accept your opinion and name him / her !). If so, please understand our Beta team is composed of professional users working in the animation industry, just as you. Some of them are following since Aura days, some of them joined us last year, after TVPaint 10.5 first release fail. You do not imagine what does their work mean and how important they are for us.

Some of us at the studio are members of the BETA team for another program (which is not bitmap 2D based) and they actually implement a lot of the features we suggest and the program has made huge leaps because of it. (Of course, many suggestions didn't make it into that program, so I'm not expecting TVpaint to just implement everything the community suggests). But above all, they seem to be happy with the input. I just wish TVpaint would have the same attitude. This alone would make it a more satisfying user experience.

Our Beta-testers signed a Non-disclosure agreement : they are not allowed to say a single word about the features we are working on. Your opinion supposes our beta-testers are not happy with our work.
How can you compare "other software beta-test" and "TVPaint beta test" if you are not a TVPaint Beta-tester yourself ?

By being so stubborn, TVpaint has created a huge hole in the market for other developers to jump into.

TVPaint developed features to be compatible with :
-CelAction
-Flix (from the Foundry, a software used by big companies like Dreamworks or Sony Pictures Animation)
-Hobsoft
-ToonZ
-Photoshop (this part is not very easy, because it is one-way...)
-Wacom

And I'm working to have kind of bridges with Redboard and Autodesk software (to easily import 2D elements in 3D software, like textures)

Of course, you can point out instances where the software did get changed due to user made suggestions, or functions that do work like you would expect, but I'm not talking about that and I hope this post doesn't end up in defending the way TVpaint works now. I just hope that you read this and start realizing that TVpaint can earn more money and a bigger piece of the pie in terms of market once you would become more dynamic and open.

Well, so what is the point of your text ? I mean, ok, you gave your opinion, that's cool, but what can you propose concretely to improve TVPaint and our community ?

If sum up your text :
• You tried every other solutions to animate, but nothing was suitable and universe forces you to use TVPaint > well... sorry ?
• TVPaint does not add new amazing things for beta testers > how can you judge it ?
• TVPaint does not want to evolve and is not open to other technologies > I bring you contrary proves (even if you do not want me to bring you contrary proves... eh !?)

So, please, tell me : what are you waiting from us, concretely ?

[neonnoodle]

Dear TVpaint developers…

Patrick, I relate to what you are saying completely. There are certain places where TVP is simply perfect in its performance; other situations where I can't accomplish a thing and have to switch to Photoshop. Some aspects of TVP have taken me a very long time to grasp (like the keyframer and other aspects of the FX stack), but now that I "get" them, I have come to appreciate why they were designed the way they were.

However, above all the biggest issues I run into over and over are interface related. You could say that TVP has become a victim of its own enormous feature set. All the features are fantastic and I think it's wonderful that things keep being added and maintained; the problem is that features tend to "hide" under 100 different places. Some are in contextual menus, some are buttons, some are checkable options, some are only in dropdown menus, some are only accessible via keyboard shortcut binding. When I run TVP, I tend to keep the manual AND these forums open all the time to search for "how do you do X-Y-Z?" Typically the answer is found after some searching, but the process must be done all over again for each bit of unknown functionality.

I personally enjoy this process of learning all the nooks and crannies and becoming a Zen master of software, but I can see how awful it would be if you don't enjoy it.

TVP itself has a long development history, and rebuilding everything from the ground up is probably the last thing any software team would want to do -- even if it's probably the only way to make everything make sense. But at the end of the day, I have to temper my frustration with the understanding that TVPaint Developpment is a small company which does a remarkable job serving the needs of a very demanding and particular community of artists. Adobe has become a juggernaut with no sense of dedication to really serving its customers; Toon Boom is both slick and soulless, and the parent corporation does so much SEO and astroturfing that it's impossible to find objective reviews of their 1,000 versions and cheapo toys; open-source projects like Pencil 2D and Synfig are effectively dead or always on the brink of death. I don't mean to say, "suck it up and don't complain," but rather, adjust your expectations. The "huge hole in the market" you observe is really a tiny niche.

[Paul Fierlinger]

"The huge hole in the market" you observe is really a tiny niche.

My favorite quote of the day.

[Peter Wassink]

Patrick i feel your frustration.
i could copy paste a big portion of your initial post on the forums of some software firms, who's products i have been trying to get into, so i know the feeling.
that i don't have as many problems with TVPaint as you could have many reasons.
Maybe its because i started my computer career on amigaOS, using Dpaint. It could be the fact that i started using tvpaint before i ever used any adobe software.
Or somehow my brain is wired in such a way as to have less problems with tvpaints quirks... who knows.
Do note that i also have problems with several aspects of tvpaint, so maybe its just that i have better managed to work around some of its shortcomings

but i do not at all recognize this:

Why would you invest in a piece of software and a group of people that don't want to go anywhere?

it is not fair and not true.
the TVPaint team, does want to go forward and the betateam is pressing them ever onward.
Actually this:

Some of us at the studio are members of the BETA team for another program (which is not bitmap 2D based) and they actually implement a lot of the features we suggest and the program has made huge leaps because of it.

Sounds very similar to the situation at tvpaint.
But you have to realize that the basic foundations of this software are very old.
a lot of huge leaps have already been made, but the sort of leaps that are needed now are increasingly complicated to achieve within TVPaints old foundation. And they do take time.
If your requests aren't met yet, this is because of that and not because of unwillingness on the developers side.

So besides the obvious room for improvement, that sometimes is frustrating to wait for . i still am a happy TVPaint user and Betateam member, and i agree there really is (still) no alternative.

[Trumpatrick]

I just want a friggin program native eraser when I press e. The basic of the basics. But all jokes aside, I am already regretting spending some of my precious hours of my work day into something that doesn't seem to come through or go anywhere.

First of all, the "why would you want that" question does not read like you explain it. I never got the idea that people wanted to know why and how I would use the proposed suggestion. More like "why for the love of god would you want that". And if I misread those answers, I don't think that would be my mistake. Your remark about the complaining choir for instance captures the tone that seeps through this community and gives it a general negative feel. Actually, I think it's downright rude. Again, I don't have to do this. Actually, I once swore never to do this again. But here I am, investing time in something like TVpaint, while I could be out feeding the birds.

I did not mention Paul, because I wasn't talking about just him. I haven't read back on the forum and it's been a long time since I logged on here, but as I remember there were others. If you want my opinion about Paul, yes he annoys me and I don't think I'm unreasonable at that. What he means to you as a beta tester is of no interest to me, and is not really relevant. But I'm glad that you appreciate each other.

I'm not sure how you misinterpret what I said about the BETA testing part. My point is not that your beta testers aren't happy with your work (how could I know indeed), so please let me try to explain myself better. I enjoy getting involved in software that I use, as sort of a thank you to the developers, but also to help my own workflow. Mostly through forums, but sometimes I even apply for beta testing, if I get the feeling that the programmers are a. appreciating the input and b. are not limited by something that was designed decades ago and seems to have gotten stuck in it's own limitations. In other words, software that feels like it has the capabilities of developing and improving. Both the TVpaint program and the community are preventing me from getting invested in such a way. Because the program leaves so much to desire (in my eyes) and there aren't many alternatives, if frustrates me that I have no place to vent this.

My post was not about specific features or requests, hence my question not to have this derail in a discussion of defending how TVpaint works as it is, which you ignored, thank you kindly. It's about how both the program and the community seem to be unnecessarily thickheaded and defensive of something that sometimes feels like an artifact from the age of the Amiga. Which makes sense, because as I understand it, it originates there. That's all nice and dandy, but completely irrelevant from a user perspective. I just want a program that works and feels like something made today. I want modern technology for my money. I want an interface that feels as intuitive as other programs that I use aside TVpaint. And I would like a community/ developers team that responds positively to the input from it's members, not being rude and end the sentence with a smileyface. Especially that last request shouldn't be too hard and already be an improvement in user experience. Look at my post as an attempt to explain to you that TVpaint and it's community, as it is now, are working hard to loose me as a customer. And I know a few others who feel this way too. Now, especially since I realize the limitations of a small team, developing an niche software and putting their hearts and soul into it, I felt the need to post my concern. You can shrug your shoulders and don't care, or you could listen and realize that you're missing precious bucks, bread and butter for your development team this way.

And Paul. So far you haven't convinced me of your value to this discussion, so either please say something useful or resist the need to chime in.

[Elodie]

What you say concerning rudeness and way of speaking is something very common on this forum and easy to explain :
• every people have their own way to think / speak
• every folk have their own way to approach humor, suggestions, etc... What looks like a joke for a French guy looks like an insult for a Dutch guy... and the contrary is also true
• nobody really knows if someone is angry or making fun or just normal. Personally, that's why I like using smiley, I find them useful to understand what someone means, as I can't see his / her face. Sorry if you find them annoying, this is how I communicate (usually, no smiley = means I am stoic and serious).
We are on a community including young and old people from everywhere (more than 60 countries have TVPaint users !) : everybody must make effort to understand each other and to be understandable.

Your remark about the complaining choir for instance captures the tone that seeps through this community and gives it a general negative feel.

Be honest : you are all three in the same studio, having runs together and then, you decided to complain together at the same time. How can we take this assault with smile ?

Please understand that, on our way, most requests from Lukas and Joost looks aggressive to us, like orders, which are not really nice to read : ok, you are the customers, but we are humans. Time goes, we are on the defensive, our answers are rude, so yours are rude, etc... and a horrible circle is created and must be broken. Looks like you helped to break it, so we can then start on new bases

Actually, I once swore never to do this again. But here I am, investing time in something like TVpaint, while I could be out feeding the birds.

Angry birds ?



Joke aside, kind of you to take your time and give your opinion.

I just want a friggin program native eraser when I press e. The basic of the basics
[...]
I want an interface that feels as intuitive as other programs that I use aside TVpaint.

Patience, patience