keyboard shortcuts mac/windows

[Joost]

I always take your self centerdness very seriously.

Why are you doing this Paul?
I'm only trying to make tvpaint better by giving them feedback.

I have only one question for you:
Do you really understand the problem I'm describing?

[Trumpatrick]

What Joost suggests would mean a one time effort from Mac users to right a flaw that TVpaint once made in the past. Maybe it wasn't a flaw, but a conscious decision they made. If Joost suggestion is the way all other Mac software handles this, wouldn't it be better for every TVpaint user (including PC and other platforms) to change this to the standard way things work? TVpaint could probably even change it in such a way that the next update fixes your shortcuts for you. But I'm not a developer, just a wishful thinker. Suggesting to buy new computers as a workaround for a problem is pretty absurd. Especially for a small studio.

Paul, about the compassion argument you bring to the table every time you don't agree with a suggestion. In my eyes compassion has no place in a professional relationship. Does our client have compassion when we don't meet the deadline because we are a team of only six people? Uhm... no. TVpaint is a professional software that costs money. Of course, the animation industry is one of many individuals and groups who do what they do because of their love for the craft, so naturally there is compassion. The TVpaint team does great and hard work. But making people feel guilty when asking for something is not the way to help this program. I think if you put your happy glasses on, you would see that Joost didn't make this suggestion out of self centeredness or to rob the developers of their weekend days.

[Lukas]

I agree that having a button that switches the CMD to Ctrl could be nice, but there are a few things to consider before implementing it.
What if you have come shortcuts that use only Ctrl ? For example, Lukas uses Ctrl + F for Faux Fixe and CMD + F for Free Transform. The button would change Ctrl + F to Free Transform, yes, but what about the shortcut for Faux Fixe ? What would happen to it ? Would it disappear ? Should we transfer it to another key ?

I don't know if other people are using Ctrl much on mac, the only reason I was using it for this shortcut was because of the george script I was using didn't work with cmd, so I was forced to shortcut it another way:

Code: Select all

tv_getmodifiers -> return shift ctrl alt

I think Cmd shortcuts should not disappear when importing it on windows, but:
Mac-Cmd, should turn into Windows-Ctrl.
And when importing a windows config file on mac:
Windows-Ctrl shortcuts should turn into Mac-Cmd shortcuts.

Mac-Ctrl shortcuts could disappear for all I care, as there's no equivalent for them on Windows. But it let's see wat other users have to think about it.

In the past, I had my TVPaint config files in my dropbox, so when I got home I could use the same settings and shortcuts as at the studio. This was super nice, except for some issues.
1. home = windows, studio = mac, so my shortcuts broke each time
2. resolution was different on the two machines, so the layout was strange
It did remember all custom panels and brushes this way, that was very useful. I would love to be able to sync shortcut settings and brushes with everyone at the studio that way.

[Joost]

I agree that having a button that switches the CMD to Ctrl could be nice, but there are a few things to consider before implementing it.
What if you have come shortcuts that use only Ctrl ? For example, Lukas uses Ctrl + F for Faux Fixe and CMD + F for Free Transform. The button would change Ctrl + F to Free Transform, yes, but what about the shortcut for Faux Fixe ? What would happen to it ? Would it disappear ? Should we transfer it to another key ?

Thanks for your reaction!
I understand that this would be a problem when exchanging keyboard shortcuts from mac to pc.
I really don't know how you can solve this. But, if cmd and ctrl were switched when you started to develop tvpaint, it wouldn't have been problem. I think now it will be difficult to switch it for a lot of mac users, because they are used to their keyboard shortcuts. However, in my opinion I think you should switch the command and ctrl button even if people don't agree with it. Every mac user has to change their keyboard shortcuts. And don't forget that I'm also one of persons who has to restore every keyboard shortcut. But don't you agree it would be better in the end for the mac version of tvpaint?

[Paul Fierlinger]

What Joost suggests would mean a one time effort from Mac users to right a flaw that TVpaint once made in the past.

To start a commercial venture so reliant on computers with two different computer systems is a serious flaw to begin with.

[Elodie]

But, if cmd and ctrl were switched when you started to develop tvpaint, it wouldn't have been problem.

TVPaint was firstly developed for Amiga.

[Joost]

TVPaint was firstly developed for Amiga.

I forgot to say " when you startet developing the mac version of tvpaint.

[Trumpatrick]

To start a commercial venture so reliant on computers with two different computer systems is a serious flaw to begin with.

Even if I agreed with that (which I don't), the example that Lukas gives is another illustration of why changing this would be a good idea. There are multiple computer systems in the world, why make it more difficult then it already is.

[Lukas]

To start a commercial venture so reliant on computers with two different computer systems is a serious flaw to begin with.

This is completely irrelevant, but we didn't start from scratch. We were some loose freelancers who decided to hire a place to work together and ended up working together as a studio. So our infrastructure was not a choice. Anyway, it works just fine with other software. Shortcuts exchange perfectly fine with Adobe stuff and Anime Studio for example.

[Thierry]

I really don't know how you can solve this.

We neither, for the moment.

However, in my opinion I think you should switch the command and ctrl button even if people don't agree with it.

But don't you agree it would be better in the end for the mac version of tvpaint?

I'm all for allowing a switch form CMD to Ctrl, but if it implies that you would lose some shortcuts during the process then I probably won't be a big fan of it (and I would feel bad for the commercial team that will have to explain that you can export your shortcuts from Mac to Windows/Linux, but that there is a risk of losing some during the process)

[Lukas]

(and I would feel bad for the commercial team that will have to explain that you can export your shortcuts from Mac to Windows/Linux, but that there is a risk of losing some during the process)

That is exactly what has been happening to me with the current way things work though

[Joost]

That is exactly what has been happening to me with the current way things work though

Yes this is why I started this discussion. If you switch ctrl to cmd you don't lose the keyboard shortcuts anymore, when exporting your keyboard shortcuts!
The only problem then is that mac user's can't use ctrl as a keyboard shortcut. But windows users can't use cmd. So eventually that's also not a problem...

[Lukas]

Concerning your shortcuts, there is also an easy solution :

• Save your key map
• Import the cfg file in Libre Office
• copy Ctrl shortcuts and overwrite Cmd shortcut
• use ctrl + F (or cmd + f) and replace Ctrl by Cmd, starting where you there should have cmd shortcuts
• save keeping cfg format
• load key map in TVPaint
• enjoy

time needed : less than 1 minute

[...] weeks of development just to allow a magic switch where Ctrl becomes Cmd and vice versa.

These two things really don't add up.

Sure they add up.
A lot of Mac power-users use shortcuts of the form Ctrl+Cmd+[someKey].
What do these shortcut becomes ?

It is not because *you* only use Cmd+[someKey] shortcuts we should impose this limitation to *every* other user.

Actually, there aren't any CMD+CTRL combinations available in the Configure Keyboard Shortcuts menu.

[Elodie]

Actually, there aren't any CMD+CTRL combinations available in the Configure Keyboard Shortcuts menu.

You made a point, this is true. You can combine Shift + Ctrl / Shift + Cmd, but not Ctrl + Cmd

But anyway, it does not fixed the problem you underlined yourself : if people on Mac needs shortcuts on using Ctrl and shortcuts using Cmd, they will be annoyed to have only choice for Cmd.

Personally (if you allow me to give my opinion), I prefer having more shortcut options because I'm on Mac, than having less shortcut options on my Mac just because Linux and Windows keyboard do not use Cmd keys.

[ematecki]

And I don't want any shortcuts at all because I'm using a Galaxy Note...