Image degradation when manipulating

[David_Fine]

I think I may have discussed this before, so forgive me, but it is a flaw that I don't understand and pertains to perhaps one of the most important things we do with an animation program. That is, move things. Below is an example of a bird rotated 6 times in TV Paint 11 and six times in Photoshop. Notice that the line gets really soft and fuzzy in TV Paint, but in Photoshop, it holds up pretty good. I wonder why Photoshop is so much better and not degrading the line than TVPaint. Have they got some very secret formula for doing this that TV Paint just cannot emulate?

bird test.jpg (57.85 KiB) Viewed 26293 times

[Thierry]

All bitmap softwares will degrade the image when scaling or rotating. That is the nature of bitmap. It doesn't happen in vector software.

It also happens in Photoshop but the matter is handled in a different way. Photoshop is not a 100% bitmap software. Its layers are kind of vectorial layers, but inside these layers, you can draw in bitmap.
That's why you can move layers out of the drawing space (contrary to TVPaint). And that's also why you can rotate images without losing quality (contrary to TVPaint).
It's just like when you load a JPG in Flash and then, rotate it in Flash : you won't lose quality neither, just because the image is now considered as a vectorial object.

In TVPaint, when you rotate an image 6 times, it is modified 6 times (and the copy of the copy of the copy of an image cannot have the save quality as the original one).
In PS, when you rotate the image 6 times, it's in fact only modified once.

[Fabrice]

Its layers are kind of vectorial layers

In PS, when you rotate the image 6 times, it's in fact only modified once.

I might be wrong, but I think it's not linked to PS layers. It's linked to PS smart objects.

[slowtiger]

Rotating a bitmap 6 times in PS (CS 5) degenerates the quality as well, just tested with increments of 1° and 15°. But it's quite invisible, with adding as much as half a pixel to all lines.

In TVP however the same sequence of manipulations causes a faint double image! Strange, haven't noticed that before.

pixeltest.PNG (155.8 KiB) Viewed 26253 times

[oellen]

I agree with David. I find the image degradation to be a very disappointing aspect of TVP. However, so far (I'm new,) I love drawing in TVP and working out my animation. If there are any images that I want to animate without making a new drawing, I'm going to use After Effects to do it. AE doesn't have the same degradation issues. But TVP rules on the frame by frame stuff.

[Paul Fierlinger]

Thank you for saying this (even twice ). I am not referring to AE but just can never understand all the fuss about rotating a drawing if it's easier to just draw whatever one pleases to draw. On rare occasions I will use TVP's rotation device to make it easier for myself to redraw an object several times over while keeping its volume undisturbed.

[slowtiger]

Paul, there are some animation jobs out there which just deals with objects to be rotated, as well as there's the cutout style of animation which needs this as well.

[Paul Fierlinger]

Well, I suppose for such jobs it's best to go elsewhere since TVP isn't equipped for it in the least. It's just that this subject gets rehashed over and over again and the answer is always the same; TVP can't do it all that well.

[D.T. Nethery]

Paul, there are some animation jobs out there which just deals with objects to be rotated, as well as there's the cutout style of animation which needs this as well.

Well, I suppose for such jobs it's best to go elsewhere since TVP isn't equipped for it in the least. It's just that this subject gets rehashed over and over again and the answer is always the same; TVP can't do it all that well.

I'm a drawer, so I agree, but for those who want that kind of function I think TVPaint COULD do this style of animation of manipulating "cut-out/puppet" images if the KeyFramer pivot/rotation handles could be easily adjusted , as discussed HERE among many of the other times this feature request has come up:

http://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php? ... 156#p85876" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(AND if the ARAP Warp function could be Keyframed to allow for more control and consistency in manipulating single images to "animate" the single images ... another feature request)

------

The potential for TVPaint to do cut-out puppet animation (like in After Effects) is glimpsed in this 2-part tutorial (in Chinese , but no problem following it visually) , which uses both Custom Cut Brush and KeyFramer to manipulate still image assets . These videos show that it can be done , but as it is now it's a cumbersome process , which could be much improved if the Keyframer pivot points could be set to custom positions .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26dS3OOZtdo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duNuNEG6M_8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;






.

[slowtiger]

TVP can do it good enough IMHO. Remember when, years ago, I was complaining about preserving my crisp line quality? I've got more relaxed now, nobody notices in the finished and coloured animation. Only very fine lines (under 3 px width) are critical.

As for more complex cutut stuff nothing beats Anime Studio, IMO.

[Fabrice]

As for more complex cutut stuff nothing beats Anime Studio, IMO.

ToonBoom or CelAction maybe ?
I don't know what are the advantages and inconvenients of each of those cut-out software.

[slowtiger]

There was a lengthy discussion about TB compared to AS recently over in the AS forum. I think the consensus was that AS was much easier to handle. Anyway, since I own AS I have no need to buy more in that line.

[Fabrice]

Sure, I understand.

I will read those discussions sooner of later thx.

[Peter Wassink]

I agree with David. I find the image degradation to be a very disappointing aspect of TVP. However, so far (I'm new,) I love drawing in TVP and working out my animation. If there are any images that I want to animate without making a new drawing, I'm going to use After Effects to do it. AE doesn't have the same degradation issues. But TVP rules on the frame by frame stuff.

if you use the custombrush you only need a single transition, which keeps any degradation well within limits.
save the custombrush in a bin or custompanel (or pick it out of the tool memory)
For each new frame you can transform from the original custombrush, this way keeping the number of transitions at one(1).
if you want to alter an earlier applied manipulation for a certain frame, make sure you are not manipulating that applied brush, but again... adjust the original custombrush,
Do this by stamping it down over the wrong one( keeping the wrong one as reference), CLR(to clear) and then press enter(to reapply).

[David_Fine]

I think there i a disconnect on this subject because many are explaining how I don't really need to manipulate my drawings that way and that there are ways to do it, like with a custom brush, that will not degrade. The thing is, that's not how I work with my drawings and using a custom brush will not do the trick (although it is a very good tip for users to know). I may be animating a character where I am redrawing, but also moving parts and even slightly distorting them to create the movement I want. It's not cut out animation, it's a combination of manipulating the image both by redrawing and using the digital tools to rotate, resize, squish or whatever. So it just isn't as simple as making a custom brush for every little bit I want to move.

The fact is, manipulating the image in any way I want is one of the main reasons we use digital media. Yes, bitmaps are not vectors, but in this program, where movement is what it's all about, it seems to me that line degradation issues should be a huge priority. I would still say that if other bitmap software does it better, then it surprises me that TVPaint lags in this critical way. My solution involves workarounds or redrawing. I also always work at higher resolution to help, but it's all about fixing something which I would prefer was better in TVPaint. It's not going to perfect because it is bitmap, but it seems to me it should be as good as any other bitmap software.