Animation Layer Timing

Mads Juul · Post by **Mads Juul** » 07 May 2007, 06:40

I have been playing around with TVP demo this weekend I have have come up with some suggestions

.
Just to introduce myself.
My name is Mads I live In Copenhagen Denmark(Excuse my english).
I was one of the Animation Directors on ""Princess"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0419073/fullcredits
http://www.princessthemovie.co.uk/
Which was the first, full digital made 2d film in denmark(or in Europe??).
We made it In PAP http://www.plasticanimationpaper.com/
I'm looking for a software with more versitile drawing abilities . and tv paint.... oh boy

ok back to timing I its crusial that youcan time your animation, on your animation layer.
And I think some color coding is importent for better/faster working.
On the timeline(and xsheet);
I think there shold be shown at least
* original drawings
* hold frames (show with brown on my example)

maybe it also could be nice with
* reuses (red) drawing 1 appears again on frame 8
* and hold reuses(lighter red)

Maybe it also could be bice with a symbol for blank fames then the assistent can see where to put the inbetweens? or maybe its to much??
*Blank (green)
*hold blank(lighter green)

I also think it could be nice with a number indicating how many frames the drawing is hold

When you step the default step should be to skip the hold frames. you only whant to work on your drawings. and the there should be some functions for making a hold frame a original . reuse to original etc.

-Mads

Peter Wassink · Post by **Peter Wassink** » 07 May 2007, 08:30

Hi Mads welcome on the forum.

i love the morgenthaler comics and heard a lot of good things about the film.
So i'd love to see it.

Your request is very good,
in fact so good that you almost exactly nailed the most important new feature in the upcoming free update! stay tuned.

(i think as betatester, i was allowed to say this much...)

Post by **TVPaint** » 07 May 2007, 09:12

Yes you are Peter

Mads, i don't have to much more to add than what Peter already said, it's coming !

Mads Juul · Post by **Mads Juul** » 07 May 2007, 09:35

Sounds great!!!

what is the time horizon for this realease.
A guess??

-mads

hisko · Post by **hisko** » 07 May 2007, 09:51

This animationtiming sounds great. It would be even better if every copied (timed) frame behaves the same as the original, so that a copy of a drawing will change automaticaly when you change the original. That would be very time saving for coloring for instance. A way to do this would be to give every drawing a unique number and every layer a unique character, so 0001a and 0001b etc.
In CTP (cratersoftware) the x-sheet behaves that way, and it's possible to unlink a copied frame by changing the number. CTP can't do a fraction of what TVpaint can, but this is a very good feature.

I suddenly realised that with the new layertiming coming up in TVpaint, the layers actually look like horizontal xsheets, making the other x-sheet somewhat redundant.

oliveuk · Post by **oliveuk** » 22 May 2007, 13:18

PAP pro does the same too. The held frame changes as soon as you modify the main drawing and with keyboard shortcuts you can either step through all the cells or only the main keys. (similar to 3d applications)

I am not a traditional animator but like Hisko said, with this new layer timeline, no need of Xsheets anymore.

Madsjuul timeline would be like an Xsheet on steroids.

ZigOtto · Post by **ZigOtto** » 22 May 2007, 20:38

oliveuk wrote: ... with this new layer timeline, no need of Xsheets anymore.

not totally agreed, because you can't identify a re-used, re-used of what original?
in classic XSheet interface, the "name-number" define the source,
and you can put it on the timeline where you want, as many times you want,
and with multi-Layers animation, the text-form of the spreadsheet is very clear to manage,
I mean for an "old-school" animator like me ...

hisko · Post by **hisko** » 23 May 2007, 17:35

Hi Zig0tto,

I don't exactly understand what you mean with: " you can't identify a re-used, re-used of what original?".

Why not? If the original has a name and number, you can.
If every new layer will have a new name automatically (and manually if wanted), and every new frame on that layer a new number, then it's easy to trace the original.
When making a walkingcycle, every time you change a drawing, all the other drawings in the cycle with the same code will be changed the same way (just like in a traditional as well as a digital x-sheet).

A way to solve the problem with the names is if it is made possible to zoom into the frames till you see the full name (just like in editingprogrammes like premiere, final cut pro etc. ) The timelines in those programmes are all horizontal.

I'm a old-school animator too, I made my first films on 35mm rostrum cameras with tons of x-sheets, and after that I used them in CTP (cratersoftware). But since tv-paint already works with the horizontal layers, I thought that you might just as well make x-sheets out of the layers.

I might be totally wrong of course.

ZigOtto · Post by **ZigOtto** » 23 May 2007, 21:08

hisko wrote:... A way to solve the problem with the names is if it is made possible to zoom into the frames till you see the full name (just like in editingprogrammes like premiere, final cut pro etc. ) The timelines in those programmes are all horizontal.

well, maybe an idea to go thoroughly into, ...
although I wouldn't have to zoom-in everytimes I want to read the cell's name in a layer's thumbnailed frame ...

I would love to try and see how goes the workflow in your system, but to me, beeing horizontally
or verticaly is not a big matter, OK, the monitors use to be wider than high ...

hisko · Post by **hisko** » 24 May 2007, 08:25

The xsheet namespaces are only 60 % wider than the frames in the timeline. So making the frames in the timeline 60% wider would solve the readingproblem.
And you are right, most animators work on dual-screen set ups and widescreen monitors with lots of horizontal space.
When the timeline works as a x-sheet, the interface becomes even more userfriendly for intuitive working I think.

Mads Juul · Post by **Mads Juul** » 24 May 2007, 15:58

I really think this is an interesting discussion.
I have been animating 2d digital for 8 years now, with PAP where there is no x-sheet, you can only see the timing of the current layer. An I dont miss the X-sheet that much.
Generally I think I consider digital 2d animation as a more intuitive and nutural way to animate, than Paper and X-sheet.
Paper is the way we choose to animate because we didnt have computers.
You can line test you animation right away, you are literally drawing directly on the film(Especially with a digital cinama projector). And all your drawing are nicely order. not in a folder or two on your animation desk. I find the x-sheet very tecnically. And the more we can get rid of it the better.

I think the information we need from the x-sheet is:
-how many frames is it hold.
-is it a reuse?
-see the timing of the other layers so you can put your new original, aligned to a original on a different layer.(I really miss this feature in PAP)
I dont think you nedde to now the name of the drawing e.g layer name. name of frame(I prefer the American way of naming(Richard Williams).The reason why it was named in the old days is because of the camra man. there should be an info box with the name of the image(layer name name of frame). some where so you can go to the original frame of an reuse. but it should not be on every frame.
I dont know if the timeline should be horizontal or vertically, wich is best?
maybe taste. but more and more I am animating in 16/9 and then there is
space on the button of the screen soo.

by the way with a new timeline there would not be need for an image layer?
I mean that would be a layer with one original and a lot of holds??
Or is there other differences between Animation and image layer?
-amds

fabrice_ · Post by **fabrice_** » 24 May 2007, 17:42

by the way with a new timeline there would not be need for an image layer?

Exactly, you are right.

Although the image layers are still available in the next coming TVP Animation (Pro) update, they could disappear in the future.

Peter Wassink · Post by **Peter Wassink** » 24 May 2007, 17:54

you could get rid of them...
but...
... they still have a slight advantage in easy resizeability without questions

but for the sake of simplifying i don't really mind if they go

ZigOtto · Post by **ZigOtto** » 24 May 2007, 19:56

Tantalus wrote:... they still have a slight advantage in easy resizeability without questions

an instance with exposures (hold frames) is resizable without questions ...
on condition that you drag the tail, not the layer-handle .

Mads Juul · Post by **Mads Juul** » 25 May 2007, 06:10

Code: Select all

 dont think you nedde to now the name of the drawing e.g layer name. name of frame

hnmmm... on second thought it would be a good idea with name on the
"original frame"(Like take2), if you are want to xsheet a "stagger" or lipsync.
I havn't done much of that, but now I realize Its maybe because I didnt have the possiblity.

if there is text on the original I actually think the vertical timeline is best:

then the with of the frame colonne would be the same
And it is easyer to align original across layers.
I used Cell action 2d the last couple of month and it has a traditional xsheet and i used it alot.

a last note I think that the original should have the name of the layer and the frame it appears first in time.
this means when you alter you timing you are altering the names to, maybe it could be a good idear to have the possibility to give an original an original name like: "frank A" or "frank happy" if you making limited lipsync alot

-mads