Painting questions

[David_Fine]

Just starting to play with painting in 11.0.3 and a couple of important things have come up I am hoping someone here can help with.

I am playing with the CTG layer for painting. It takes some getting used to, but I suspect I will pick it up (at least I hope). What seems to be clear is that it does a lot, but not always everything, so inevitably, there are instances where you just need to go in and fix something manually, either using a brush or the paint bucket fill. (I would be filling on a paint layer below the line) Thing is, the paint bucket fill doesn't work the way I would hope. I can't see how to close gaps. When I fill, it leaks out. If I adjust the gap setting a pixel or two, it does not leak, but then it does not fill properly. Check the attached picture to see what I mean. I get all these little empty spots. I would like to be able to quickly close the gap with an invisible line, but I can't see that option. If not, how do I fill an area like this without having to go and manually touch up with a brush?

Question number 2! So it seems that the best way to use colour models to paint from is not to make a palette of colours, but to just make a colour model to pick from. That way, instead of a panel of squares, you have a visual reference. You can see that the colour for the nose is the colour which is in the nose. Simple! Thing is, how do people use a colour model in an easy way? If it's in it's own scene, you have to click between tabs for every single colour and that is very tedious. I want the colour model to just float on top like any panel and ideally, I want to be able to click on the colour once to grab it. That is, not click on the colour well and then click on the colour model and then fill. That's twice as many clicks. I hear there is a plug in which does this, but it's only for PC's and I am on Mac. Any Mac users have any idea how to achieve this? What is a good working method for using your colour model to pick colours quickly and efficiently?

Thanks!

[slowtiger]

The flood fill works best for me when I set it to overflow about half my line thickness. Like "Line = 10, expand = 5". Usually I do one pass with one colour and no gap closing, then go back with a gap close value of 2 or 3, then repeat with the next colour. After that it's painting with a 15 px brush set to behind. Since I have many gaps, my workflow now starts with filling everything with one colour, then go back, switch on preserve alpha, and paint the rest by hand.

As for colour management, the best solution I've seen so far was a custom tool panel with all colours for a character neatly named as buttons. You can import and export each colour set separately. Yes, that's possible in the colour bin, but there I don't have names, and the squares are much too tiny for me to hit.

[Jet]

You should get into the habit of making sure your cleanup is clean, that means making sure everything is closed up, you can check this by doing an inverse fill, I'd say it's courteous if you work in a team for your colorists, also helps keep you sane if you color your own work.

I always paint with no anti-aliasing and I always use the paint bucket tool in TVP, recently they made one of my dreams come true by implementing color separation line/border line control putting it on par with the likes of Retas and Toonz.

If you need to fill very large on-purpose stylistic gaps then paint the area with a line of the color you intend to fill that area with first to close it up. Or if you use the above border line method you can close the gaps using any color and have it replaced automatically when you fill with the real color.



For organization I use high res images because they're universal across all programs as opposed to using inbuilt palette systems that are restricted to each program you use, also much easier to understand when working in teams or on somebody else' project. This is easy to do in TVP because TVP color picker picks from the entire screen and not the document file, so you don't need to switch documents to pick a color.

I create a color turn-around model sheet of each character, if there are complicated zones like eyes I'll do an enlargement somewhere on the model sheet, if there are zones that are transparent then I'll write the opacity value with a tail pointing to the area(s) inside a full opaque color box of the actual color with RGB values, I'll create the model sheet using no anti-aliasing to make it fool-proof, I separate base colors, shadow colors and light colors onto separate layers to allow easy modification.

This allows me to load in a background painting for a specific scene or sequence that requires unique lighting conditions directly to the model sheet file and play with the colors to grab the color keys by exporting it as a new file.

Like this:




Although I don't get on very well with CTG, it is super useful for when you want to create flats, just paint a long squiggle through the entire character and bam, convert back to normal mode and use paint bucket.

[Jet]

Thought I'd explain myself a bit better, this uses the TVP "include borders" feature in bucket tool options:

Outline cleanup:


Border line correction:


Fill using Include Borders, it will automatically fill those colored lines as long as you load them in first:


For those still on 10.5.7, fill using the same colors as you used on the border lines, make sure you fill on the same layers that contain these lines, this absorbs the lines, you then need to color again afterwards with your intended color or use FX Color Replacer:


Include Borders can be found here:


Again, big kudos to the TVP team for that.

[David_Fine]

The flood fill works best for me when I set it to overflow about half my line thickness. Like "Line = 10, expand = 5". Usually I do one pass with one colour and no gap closing, then go back with a gap close value of 2 or 3, then repeat with the next colour. After that it's painting with a 15 px brush set to behind. Since I have many gaps, my workflow now starts with filling everything with one colour, then go back, switch on preserve alpha, and paint the rest by hand.

As for colour management, the best solution I've seen so far was a custom tool panel with all colours for a character neatly named as buttons. You can import and export each colour set separately. Yes, that's possible in the colour bin, but there I don't have names, and the squares are much too tiny for me to hit.

It's interesting that both you and Jet seem to prefer the old paint bucket fill to the fancier CTG layer (or Lazy Brush) method. Some people swear by the CTG method, but others appear to still prefer the paint bucket. I am guessing it's a combo of both where you get as close as you can with the CTG and then bake it and do the rest, but I wonder what your usual working method is.

As regards, colour panels, I can see that making those up as buttons would work. The button can be a fill bucket so that in one click, you choose the colour and the tool, but of course this means making up the panels for each character and I was thinking that a colour model was more intuitive. Ideally, a special new panel that holds a visual colour model and acts as a button panel so that you click once on the colour and it chooses that colour and the tool you want for it. That seems like something that could be created and as I say, I believe it already exists on the PC side.

[David_Fine]

Jet, thank you so much for your really detailed answer. I want to play with your suggestions and respond, so coming soon, but wanted to thank you right away.

Okay, I'm back! Jan, when you load your colour model image into TVPaint, how do you use it in TVPaint when you are painting a scene? My issue is that it is hidden behind the scene on another tab, so every time you want to pick a colour, you have to select the tab with the colour model, then pick the colour, then select the scene again and then apply the colour, every time you need to change colours. That's very cumbersome, so I was hoping there was a better way. I agree that a visual colour model which is universal is best, but the panel made up with named colours always floats right there, which makes it very easy to use.

Thank you for the excellent demo using my leech. I tried it though, and it did not work for me as yours did until I realized that you are painting on the line level, whereas I am painting below it, but referring to the layer above. This way, the line is always left clean. It seems to me that this is the safe way to go, but I wonder how you do it, or others. Do you paint right on the line layer? Clearly the CTG layer is below, so that colour is separate. Anyway, for painting below I notice that I can use the Sketch Panel, draw a fine red line on the line layer to close a gap and then delete the red. It works a treat, as I had hoped when I was asking for a line closing tool. It's not called "line closing tool", but it does just that. Only thing is the extra step of deleting the red after whereas a true line closing tool would just be invisible and so no need to do that second step. Hey TVPaint, there's an idea for you!

So this has been very helpful, but I am interested still in comments regarding preferred painting method as well as thoughts about the best way to use a colour model. Again, thanks so much for the quick and helpful posts here.

Cheers!

[slowtiger]

As for colour models, I sometimes paste a small version of it into the corner of an image layer.

[Jet]

Jan, when you load your colour model image into TVPaint, how do you use it in TVPaint when you are painting a scene? My issue is that it is hidden behind the scene on another tab, so every time you want to pick a colour, you have to select the tab with the colour model, then pick the colour, then select the scene again and then apply the colour, every time you need to change colours. That's very cumbersome, so I was hoping there was a better way.

I use TVP files in windowed mode so I can place them side by side, I'm not sure what it's called, but I don't dock any files to be full screen if you know what I mean.

Other apps have a reference image window that allows you to load in an image and when you hover over that window with your cursor it automatically switches to the color picker, so you just click on what color you want, then when you hover back over to the main window it automatically switches back to whatever tool you had selected, you can also zoom/pan in the window to make use of a high res image and some have next and prev file buttons so you can quickly cycle through a model pack for instance. I don't know if TVP already has something like this, I could almost swear it does (I'm not at my work PC to check), if not perhaps something like that could be done in the future, I'm a bit of a lazy bones and just drag and drop the image into TVP so I never honestly explored.

Another thing I can almost swear I'm sure of is TVP can pick a color anywhere from the screen, so you could use something like Kuadro to place an image on the top of everything and color pick from that, there is a Mac version now.

Thank you for the excellent demo using my leech. I tried it though, and it did not work for me as yours did until I realized that you are painting on the line level

No, lines are on their own level, I never work destructively with line work. Any border lines should be on their own level, that level should also be used as the color level eventually, so you can draw shadow lines, highlight lines, boundary lines (where two colors meet without a black outline) and close gaps in a single level. Like this:

1 > Clean lines level
2 > Border lines/color level
3 > Rough lines

You should draw with green for example to close your gaps on a level below your clean line work, then open include borders and add that green color as an option (it will be in a list to choose from), make sure it is selected and the bucket fill tool is set to reference all levels and you should be good. I added both red and blue and toggled between them.

It's interesting that both you and Jet seem to prefer the old paint bucket fill to the fancier CTG layer (or Lazy Brush) method. Some people swear by the CTG method, but others appear to still prefer the paint bucket. I am guessing it's a combo of both where you get as close as you can with the CTG and then bake it and do the rest, but I wonder what your usual working method is.

Both fill methods are great, I think it will depend on what it is you're doing. I don't draw my clean lines anti-aliased for example, I add MLAA during composite/render, TVP now has SMAA which is just as good in the FX panel. It's also explained here in the 11.0.3 change log under the "include borders" spoiler tag: http://tvpaint.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 058#p91074" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personally it is the best system I've found and kind of forced on me a bit over the years, but I imagine we all have our own routines, rituals and styles so your mileage may vary.

[David_Fine]

Jan? Who's Jan? Sorry Jet. Okay, I get it now. Didn't realize I had to make a third level for the closer line. That worked. Using the Sketch Panel to draw the closer line in red right on the line level works too because it is easy to erase them all without changing the original line at all. So both work.

I will check out Kuadro. Thanks for the tip. What is MLAA and SMAA? I figure the AA is anti aliasing, so you draw strictly monotone black and then output to achieve AA after. We have been working here with an AA line, so we won't change now, but what is the advantage of not doing that?

[D.T. Nethery]

David -

For a free floating color model panel to pick the colors from you can also import your Color Model into the Mixer , with the Color Model showing the character and swatches.

[Jet]

The bigger picture with using border lines is they are absolute pixel formations, in my example every pixel is accounted for, so if I draw a very sharp angle it is maintained, I think in your latter description of using the sketch panel amounts to a pixel estimation if you use any gap closing or expand settings or CTG since the fill will expand beyond your border line, it's what Elodie suggested in what I guess was the feature debate thread where I argued why it's no good for certain things (mainly japanim): http://tvpaint.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9218" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



I think the way I work is called posterization or monochromatic. It's because I studied Japanese animation techniques instead of western techniques, I only learned western techniques much later and found they were much less efficient. Unfortunately what I learned from Japan didn't translate well in the US/EU, explaining the Japanese techniques can be quite difficult and a hard sell.

With this image there was only 1 unfilled area right under her chin. Colored in less than 2 minutes. Left side is monochromatic (doesn't look it, it's super high res and is down scaled here), right side is using MLAA from AE.

This is probably too elaborate for explaining how to close a gap in a line! Sorry about that.

The way I would do it is use green on my color layer to close off my black lines, then tell TVP to automatically fill those green lines when I add color.

[David_Fine]

David - For a free floating color model panel to pick the colors from you can also import your Color Model into the Mixer , with the Color Model showing the character and swatches.

Aha! This could be exactly what I am after. I just have to load each colour model each time I am colouring that character. Thank you! While I am on this subject, can you explain how the option, "new mixer from current image" works, because I am getting confusing results. It seems to grab a square from an arbitrary part of the current image. It would be nice if I could use that command to quickly grab whatever part of the screen I want to use as a colour model, but I can't see how to do that.

[D.T. Nethery]

David - For a free floating color model panel to pick the colors from you can also import your Color Model into the Mixer , with the Color Model showing the character and swatches.

Aha! This could be exactly what I am after. I just have to load each colour model each time I am colouring that character. Thank you!

After you've loaded a Color Model/Palette in the Mixer panel , it is now part of a LIST of existing Mixers that you can easily toggle between from the menu.

While I am on this subject, can you explain how the option, "new mixer from current image" works, because I am getting confusing results. It seems to grab a square from an arbitrary part of the current image. It would be nice if I could use that command to quickly grab whatever part of the screen I want to use as a colour model, but I can't see how to do that.

I get the same results from that option , so I never use it. Hopefully someone from TVPaint Development team can jump in to answer that.

[David_Fine]

So I played around with using the Mixer and had a few questions. I notice that you have to be careful not to touch the image before hitting the eye dropper tool otherwise it distorts the colour (that is, it mixes the colour). If I do goof up and mess it, it does not undo, so you have to reload the image. Then the mixer list gets populated with multiple versions, so I would like to be able to remove them. How do you remove all the other mixer images listed there that I don't want?

I notice that I can grab directly from the small icon of the image in the Library too. That could work, except that the image is so small. Is there some way to make the image preview in the Library larger? That would be a good way to hold colour models too.

[D.T. Nethery]

So I played around with using the Mixer and had a few questions. I notice that you have to be careful not to touch the image before hitting the eye dropper tool otherwise it distorts the colour (that is, it mixes the colour). If I do goof up and mess it, it does not undo, so you have to reload the image.

AH ! Good point . I should have mentioned that. To avoid that happening click the LOCK icon at the bottom right corner of the Mixer panel.

Then the mixer list gets populated with multiple versions, so I would like to be able to remove them. How do you remove all the other mixer images listed there that I don't want?

I think the only way is to delete the unwanted Mixer (right-click > Delete Mixer ) . So if you made a mistake by accidentally mixing the color on the imported Color Model image , delete it and re-import it ... then LOCK it so it can't be changed .



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