Auto break and Auto create issues in TVP 11

[Soom]

in previous versions of TVPaint, when Auto-create was on, it created a new instance when drawing on an empty space in a layer. In TVP11 this behavior changed, and now it just stretches the same exposure to the frame where I'm drawing. To have it create an instance, I have to have auto break on. But I have it off, because I'm not using it. I think this is a worse behavior than it was previously. I can't even create a new instance in an empty area by the "break instance" command.
This affects my workflow - basically now I need to do more actions to achieve the same thing. What was the purpose of this change in behavior?
Could this please be reversed to the previous behavior, or at least "break instance" should work on an empty area...

[slowtiger]

"Break instance" and "Create new instance after last frame" are two separate buttons now, and on by default. Check?

[Soom]

"Break instance" and "Create new instance after last frame" are two separate buttons now, and on by default. Check?

what is create after last frame? such command doesn't exist... I need to create an instance right on the frame where I am now, no matter if there is an exposure there or not

[Elodie]

If you want to create a new instance, you have to enable auto break.

[Soom]

If you want to create a new instance, you have to enable auto break.

Exactly what I said in the first place - I don't want to have it on, but I need to create new instances quick. It was not like that in TVP 10.5

[Elodie]

No, it was not like that in TVPaint 10.5...
That is not the only thing in version 11 which is different from version 10.5. That's actually the point of the thing : what would be the interest to release a new version if nothing changes.

It's a real struggle to deal with new features requests and users' habits. Sometime, a tiny little sacrifice (like clicking on an icon) is necessary to please as many people as possible.
We had to make this choice to get rid of "Image layer" type (which was confusing for many users), and make things easier in the Layer preset panel too. Since many other users needed to paint and stretch automatically the instance without breaking it / adding a new instance, we had no other way to do it.
As you can see, there is a reflection behind this : we did not wake up one morning and said "eh! we should change how auto create works"

In your workflow, I would just advise you to assign a shortcut to toggle auto break on / off.

[Soom]

That is not the only thing in version 11 which is different from version 10.5. That's actually the point of the thing : what would be the interest to release a new version if nothing changes.

That's debatable - things that work well are not supposed to change

Since many other users needed to paint and stretch automatically the instance without breaking it / adding a new instance, we had no other way to do it.
As you can see, there is a reflection behind this : we did not wake up one morning and said "eh! we should change how auto create works"

Ok, that pretty much answers my question then - so there were users who were not satisfied the other way around. the question is how many are dissatisfied now ?
Anyway - pleasing everybody can be the right goal in that case - you could make a command "create new instance" which works in any place - doesn't sound like it should affect anything as it is now, and everybody is happy... )

[Elodie]

That's debatable

That was debated when we were preparing version 11.

Ok, that pretty much answers my question then - so there were users who were not satisfied the other way around.

No, that's not what I explained.

I said that before, the only way to stretch + paint to the same instance, was the use of Image layer type, which do not exist anymore, since we could imitate it's behaviour with an anim layer.

Anyway - pleasing everybody can be the right goal in that case - you could make a command "create new instance" which works in any place - doesn't sound like it should affect anything as it is now, and everybody is happy... )

Obviously. There is a difference between asking developers to reverse what they did 2 years ago for your only workflow and ask kindly for an action button that creates an instance at the right place, to keep the workflow you were used to.

I don't know if you realize, but most of your posts - especially since you're using version 11- are mainly complains or demands (rather than requests). It leaves the impression that you like nothing in version 11, which quite depressing. At least, that's how the crew here reads your posts : are you aware of this or is it any language / culture gap ? I don't know. I just share with you what we sincerely feel here

I also understand that you feel a little bit lost with the numerous changes, but they were done for a reason. If you don't get them - which I understand - you are welcome to ask why, but please avoid to say after "I want it like before!" without taking a little consideration for the crew or other users' needs.

And yes, I will do tomorrow an action button that does what you need.

[Soom]

No, that's not what I explained.
I said that before, the only way to stretch + paint to the same instance, was the use of Image layer type, which do not exist anymore, since we could imitate it's behaviour with an anim layer.

Ok, that's absolutely clear now, sorry for not getting it in the first place

I don't know if you realize, but most of your posts - especially since you're using version 11- are mainly complains or demands (rather than requests). It leaves the impression that you like nothing in version 11, which quite depressing. At least, that's how the crew here reads your posts : are you aware of this or is it any language / culture gap ? I don't know. I just share with you what we sincerely feel here

Ah, well, yes - that could be a cultural gap - I do not intend to offend anyone, just the way I write - my tone in my mind is absolutely neutral. I love TVPaint, who said I don't - but you know - when you love something too much, you do expect it to be perfect, and then when something is a bit off, the frustration becomes even stronger I will try to do my best to improve my forum communication skills - I'm usually Ok with that, but since I am too familiar here, I kind of tend to cut short to the point, and I don't watch my language really, so sorry for that.

And yes, I will do tomorrow an action button that does what you need.

Ah, that would be great! Thanks!

[NathanOtano]

"Break instance" and "Create new instance after last frame" are two separate buttons now, and on by default. Check?

what is create after last frame? such command doesn't exist... I need to create an instance right on the frame where I am now, no matter if there is an exposure there or not

I also never use the auto break/autocreate options in my workflow, I tend to make mistakes with it by creating new instances without noticing it, so I made a button to help. The first button is to break+clear your instance at current time inside and outside layer (You also have a button in the handy custom panel but it does'nt work outside your layer, maybe the TVPaint team could fix this? If I remember it already has been discussed before). And the second button is a bonus, it breaks your instance but clears the left side of the broken instance.
Each button activates autothings, breaks+clears, then desactivates autothings on current layer.

I also wish an option to desactivate autobreak/create globally. Even if I had set my default layer/layer presets to avoid it, sometimes (like when I export CTG layers) I still get those options activated and I make mistakes and create new instances
For now I had to modify my shortcuts to be able to work without autothings and I understand that for some users they don't know how to deal with it (default layer in settings, templates, layer presets, modifying shortcuts...).

But having autobreak options for each layer and removing image layers was a good thing for me, it's more clear and flexible now and that a really good thing. I'm just wondering how much tvpaint users really use autobreak/autocreate without a shortcut to clear the instance (autobreak by drawing on a non-empty instance does'nt make sense to me, almost the same for autocreate because I want my new instance just after my current instance and I don't want to calculate in my head how long the current instance will be lasting after my break stroke... I either time it before or after creating my instance.) and if it really should be the default option.

[Soom]

I also wish an option to desactivate autobreak/create globally. Even if I had set my default layer/layer presets to avoid it, sometimes (like when I export CTG layers) I still get those options activated and I make mistakes and create new instances

I agree - same here

I'm just wondering how much tvpaint users really use autobreak/autocreate without a shortcut to clear the instance (autobreak by drawing on a non-empty instance does'nt make sense to me

I think I'm actually one of them - since I don't always need to clear a new instance, I prefer to have 2 actions - to be safe. One - break, and another - clear. Then I can choose if I want or don't want to clear a key.

so I made a button to help

Your buttons work great, but to fit my needs I tried to remove the "clear" command, but then it all stops working - do you have any way to go around it?

Anyway - I hope Elodie will come up with something. Actually I just realized, that the command "create instance before (or after) the current frame" works fine, so I believe it should be easy just to make a similar "create instance on head position" button...

[Elodie]

Ok, I wanted to see whether Nathan's panel suits your needs or not.

add 1 key.tvpx

(105 KiB) Downloaded 789 times

NathanOtano wrote:
I also wish an option to desactivate autobreak/create globally. Even if I had set my default layer/layer presets to avoid it, sometimes (like when I export CTG layers) I still get those options activated and I make mistakes and create new instances


I agree - same here

Not possible anymore for logical reasons : if you had "global" settings and "case by case" settings, which one should be used ? That makes total nonsense and that's how bugs pops up. That's why it's up to you to modify your Preset of layers in order to always create layers that behaves as you want. Don't forget also to change the options in Edit > Preferences > Startup to define the basical layer you get when you create a new project.

NathanOtano wrote:
I'm just wondering how much tvpaint users really use autobreak/autocreate without a shortcut to clear the instance (autobreak by drawing on a non-empty instance does'nt make sense to me


I think I'm actually one of them - since I don't always need to clear a new instance, I prefer to have 2 actions - to be safe. One - break, and another - clear. Then I can choose if I want or don't want to clear a key.

Some people create a bunch of instances first.
Some people keeps both options activated and hit "clear" because they kept "hold" post behaviour.
Some people keeps both options activated and use "none" post behaviour" to paint automatically because they animate "straight in a row".
Some people will animate and focus on timing, so they combine with Flip + hold post behaviour + clear each time they need a new frame.
Some people animate on paper, scan and import it into TVPaint, so they will disable auto create but keeps auto break to add inbetweens.
Some people, like color artists, will disable both options to keep the timing of what they are colouring.
Some people will paint backgrounds and need to paint it without being afraid of adding a new instance, even if they are on frame 100.

The list is not exhaustive, but it sums up well the different ways people work following their habits (former paper animator, flash animator, etc.), their customs (Japanese animators do not work like European animators) and their roles (colour artists does not have the same needs as key animators or in betweens artists).

[NathanOtano]

Thanks for the summary Elodie, it helps a lot

Soon : I guess Elodie's button does what you need, for my buttons you can use the "break" shortcut instead of the "clear" shortcut and it should work. But in this case I use the break shortcut of the handy custom panel that does the job even if autothings are desactivated it's also on elodie's panel.
I also have two shortcuts, one for break and one for clear. I was talking about breaking an instance by drawing a line.

[Soom]

Ok, I wanted to see whether Nathan's panel suits your needs or not.

add 1 key.tvpx
(105 KiB) Downloaded 7 times

Hi Elodie
Thanks a lot with this helpful action, but it's till not exactly what I need. Sorry to be an annoyance, but what would be really great, if the new instance on an empty layer area would actually not clear the drawing, but act just like Break instance. I tried to add this function to the button, but with no success. I realize that probably the only way to do it is by tapping a pen stroke on screen (while auto-create is enabled) and then clicking Break - the tapping would force the exposure to extend - but I could not find a way to create a discreet stroke, or invoke this exposure extension in any other way - is there any way to do it?
Thanks

[NathanOtano]

Have you updated your tvpaint? I think I remember that the break shortcut was corrected because of this.