Out of Pegs / Shift and Trace : big question !!!

[Elodie]

Ideas are in the air (for the ones who missed that topic, Nathan is working on a script to enhance Out of pegs).
We have similar requests from everywhere and we have the beginning of a solution in mind BUT that means we will have to limit the number of images that can be shifted and traced.

So, here is my big question : do you think it is useful to take more than 2 drawings out of the pegs ? Let me clarify : you could still use 10- and 10+ drawings in the light table, but when you have to take drawings out of the pegs, do you usually use 2 drawings (1 before and 1 after) or do you usually use several drawings ?

If some of you have the time for this, don't hesitate to record small videos that shows how you work with TVPaint / on paper or any other software to shift and trace.

Thank you !

[slowtiger]

I could live with taking 3 drawings out of pegs as long as I could choose them freely: somewhere before and behind (not necessarily just 1 frame, or the same distance for both) for the flow, and a 3rd one from elsewhere as a size/proportions reference.

[Elodie]

Ok, yes indeed, it could be any drawings. The idea is to know if usually you use more than 3 drawings (the current drawing + 2 additional one, whatever their position in the timeline) when you shift and trace, or if you may need more than 3 drawings.

According to your answer, 3 is okay
Thanks Markus !

[NathanOtano]

I duscussed about it with fabrice, and I would say that I need more than 3 drawings. Don't get me wrong, for inbeetweening beetween two drawings 3 drawings is enough, maybe I'd really need 5 images at the same time on my screen only to check arcs. But having multiple drawings having the same reference point like how I was suggesting it with my script, we would be able to animate "on the spot" like in old days of animation (it's juste a whole definitive out of peg following the camera, like when we render camera in a project). But I really need to have this "on the spot" animation on my current project to avoid loosing my developped animation (I could switch beetween the two, which is unprecedented)

What does it mean it terms of the script I made? I choose the same reference point across all my drawings, it's linked to the instances, and when activating out of peg it automatically matches reference points of the instances in my lighgtable (depending on lightable mode). Let's say I have a walk developped in a long background : I put the reference point of each frame at the center of gravity of my character and I'll be able to see the spacing "on the spot" with my lighttable, meaning that I can inbeetween my up and downs and flip threw it without bothering with how much the character goes forward/backward.

One of the thing I heard this summer is that people wants to flip out of peg but by being able to draw on the out of peg drawings. So i'd add that while going from an instance to another, it would be nice that the canvas translates to match the drawings in space. Much like the "follow camera" option we have.

In fact I see everything linked here. Instances with reference points, Lightable like what we have now, and Moving Canvas option to match the reference points while flipping.

[Elodie]

maybe I'd really need 5 images at the same time on my screen only to check arcs.

When you draw arcs, it's usually before you shift the drawings.

I really want to make the difference between "displaying several drawing by transparency through the Light Table" and "taking a few drawings out of the pegs to draw inbetweens". The first case is not going to change.
At the moment, I just want to focus on the second case, so are you telling me that you need sometimes to shift 5 drawings when you are doing inbetweens / inking ? If so, isn't it too much to display 4 drawings + the current one ? (I find that quite hard to focus on the current drawing when you have so many things displayed at the same time!)

[slowtiger]

In my workflow I indicate the arcs before I take anything off the pegs.

[NathanOtano]

I also always draw my rough inbeetween before using out of peg because I need to know where the drawing here regarding space and arcs. I use OOP for tie down beetween solid poses.

But xhen I out of peg my drawings, I still have arcs regarding my rotations in space of the things I moved. My out of pegged head is still rotating by itself right? It's for some realistic and advanced animation, yep, but I'm using it all the time. The same way you need arcs in space, you still need them when using out of peg even if they are smaller, to manage your rotation spacing of your rough inbeetween before actually matching rotation. Now that your motion is closer, you still need to see how it eveolves in space (it's not just arcs, it's also for spacing).

I'd use 5 drawings to draw a new rough inbeetween for rotation (i'd have scaled my LT images already so I focus on getting the right rotation spacing), then I'll match my OOP rotation so every drawing is matching perfectly. Then I'll use just 3 drawings for tie down/clean, flipping my drawings with my modified MJ OOP script instead of using transparancy so I can keep everything solid.

I know what I talked about it some advanced thing, but it's of the same us as the "follow camera" option we have, but more advanced as the OOP also adapts when you flip and not just the canvas.

[Fabrice]

I know what I talked about it some advanced thing,

It's ok don't worry :) but we would like to keep the discussion around Elodie's question to get more users feedbacks/answers.
The purpose for us is to know if it could be useful to code something fast with less options (f.i only 3 OOP images), or delay the whole thing and get more options (all images with OOP).
Also, depending on the people answer, we will think about the complexity of the graphic user interface to create, according to the current engine capabilities.


so back to :

>> So, here is my big question : do you think it is useful to take more than 2 drawings out of the pegs ? Let me clarify : you could still use 10- and 10+ drawings in the light table, but when you have to take drawings out of the pegs, do you usually use 2 drawings (1 before and 1 after) or do you usually use several drawings ?

[slowtiger]

I wonder if anyone uses OOP for other things as cleanup or inbetweening?

[NathanOtano]

Thanks Fabrice, I understand better now. Lets say 5 drawings for me then : ) but 3 most of the time.

To slowtiger, i'll also use oop while storyboarding (just 3 drawings) to move a character (pos and size) and change an expression consistently beetween two narrative poses. In fact oop became an inherent part of how I draw in time, even for rough things, not just as a refining tool. Almost like how you would use lighttable even if your not inbetweening.

[Peter Wassink]

i mainly use OOP for inbetweening so 3 would be fine for me.

btw i love Nathans script, it works wonderfully, very powerfull!

[schwarzgrau]

I could live with taking 3 drawings out of pegs as long as I could choose them freely: somewhere before and behind (not necessarily just 1 frame, or the same distance for both) for the flow, and a 3rd one from elsewhere as a size/proportions reference.

I was about to completely agree with Markus, but then I read Nathans post about the arcs. So till now I never use more than three OOP images, even if I sometimes use more lighttable-images (for arcs). But considering Nathans script I guess I could easily use more than three images to create arcs with OOP-images.

[NathanOtano]

I agree, I wasn't using 5 drawings OOP too much because it was taking me too much time for me to set the OOP regarding the drawing I wanted to achieve, but I thought about it really often. If the setting was easier I would have used it.

[D.T. Nethery]

I could live with taking 3 drawings out of pegs as long as I could choose them freely: somewhere before and behind (not necessarily just 1 frame, or the same distance for both) for the flow, and a 3rd one from elsewhere as a size/proportions reference.

i mainly use OOP for inbetweening so 3 would be fine for me.

btw i love Nathans script, it works wonderfully, very powerfull!

I would say the same as Slowtiger and Peter . For shift-and-trace inbetweening off-pegs I have never needed to use more than 3 drawings at one time -- 2 drawings shifted off the pegs and taped down along the lower edges , then the single inbetween drawing on a fresh sheet of paper positioned half-way between the 2 drawings and taped down along the lower edges (to allow for flipping while inbetweening) , or positioned slightly closer to one drawing or the other if the inbetween should be "favoring" one or the other (instead of being a straight-in-the-middle half-way inbetween).

That said , I am intrigued by Nathan's proposals to allow for showing more than 1 drawing before and 1 drawing after the current inbetween drawing ... if it can be done then I say more options is always better ... but for myself I just want/need a function in TVPaint that mimics the traditional shift-and-trace off-pegs method used when animating on paper.

.

[Fabrice]

Thanks for all the input guys, it will help for the next developments.