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Excellent. I will have to wait until next week to try it. Thank you!

Janet Perlman wrote: ↑05 Jan 2018, 16:37 Excellent. I will have to wait until next week to try it. Thank you!

I have to admit , the thing baffles me ! I really don't understand the logic of it. I started looking at it again when I saw your post and I remembered that I also have times where it might be useful to print out an "X-sheet" version of my timeline . There's no tutorial for using this tool as far as I know. I'd be very interested to see how it's actually supposed to work in real production usage.

There was an early version of it that I recall seeing screen shots where it differentiated between Keys and Inbetweens by showing Keys as CIRCLED frame on the columns and Inbeteweens as a black ⊚ (dot) symbol , which was kind of useful , but that doesn't seem to have carried over to the released version with TVPaint 11.0.8. All drawings whether Keys or Inbetweens are denoted by an X on the columns , showing how many frames it is exposed . (unless I'm using it completely wrong , which is a very real possibility ...)

I searched out the earlier discussion, so you can have a look at what it was like then (this was from January20, 2016) : https://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php ... 63&p=92855

The formatting of the sheet looked better to me in that earlier version.

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EDIT: ok, upon rereading that earlier discussion more closely, I see at least one major thing I've been doing WRONG --- before generating the sheet it is first necessary to MARK the Keys with Image Marks. Otherwise it will show the drawing as simply an X on the sheet. Then after the inbetweens are completed the inbetween frames should have Image Marks assigned .

I hope someone from the development team can step in to explain this better, maybe with a video tutorial.


Here's a simple example with only three layers:

Anim - A
Anim- B
BG

My keys on Anim layer A are 1 , 9, 17, 27 and are given a RED image mark .
My keys on Anim layer B are 1 , 9, 13, 21 and given a BLUE image mark.
(although notice there are actually 5 layers in the layer stack : I added two blank layers with no name as "spacers" between layer A and layer B and between layer B and the BG layer
so it wouldn't be quite a cramped when rendered to the sheet . That sort of worked, but sort of didn't , it still looks cramped to me.)

Click on the button in the Timesheet panel that says Timesheet Key and it generates a sheet showing the keys only , with missing
inbetween frames as X's .

inbetweens will be filled in and image marked in the next step.

Now let's say I have gone back in and added the inbetween frames on Anim layer A - 3, 5, 7 , 11, 13, 15 , 19, 21, 23, 25
and inbetween frames on Anim layer B - 11, 15, 17, 19 (1 is held for 8 frames , 21 is held for 8 frames on layer B)
Image Mark colors assigned to the inbetween frames.

Then click on the button in the Timesheet panel that says Timesheet Inbetweens and it redraws the sheet to add a new set of
columns to the right of the first set , showing the inbetween frames which have been added .
[click to see it larger]

So this is now behaving more like I would expect from an "X-sheet" ... BUT some issues remain for me, namely the spacing is too cramped. The font sizes used for the layer names, the drawing numbers , the "Dialog" and "Camera" columns all render too large for the space they are intended to be contained in , so readability is an issue. The red circle placed around the drawings designated as KEYS is a good idea, but the circle is too small compared to the font size used. Perhaps this is an issue on my end , my default fonts are set too large or something ? I don't know . Again, I'd be curious to see how this works for someone else . I feel confused when trying to use this tool. Really, in my professional experience, there's nothing more logical and elegant than an X-sheet . It should be clearly legible . This tool is a step in the right direction, I can see it being useful, but it still needs refinement in my opinion. (or else I need a swift kick in the pants and someone to tell me what I'm doing wrong when I try to use it , if this confusion is just me being an idiot) .

It seems to work better if you do NOT give the instance name's a Prefix letter(s). Not quite so cramped-
In this case with the single Background image did I name the instance as "BG" , so it would show up clearly on the sheet . The layers are simply named A - B - C (the BG is on layer C).
Of course the way this currently works the TVPaint timesheet has rendered the layer ordering as : C - B - A , but you just have to do the mental gymnastics to reverse the standard ordering and realize that on this sheet the lowest layer is the first one on the left and the topmost layer is the last one on the right . (to my way of thinking that order should be reversed to read from left-to-right , but this is what is for now ...) .

By the way, this PRINTS nice and easy, from File Menu > Print .

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It gets unreadable when you move from two-digit numbers to three-digit numbers. It seems like the font size should adjust automatically to resize itself to fit inside the available space on the timesheet instead of everything getting smooshed together into an unreadable mess. This can't be right ? Someone from TVPaint tell me what I'm doing wrong here
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Ok, now look at this next image . I went back to the discussion from last year -- https://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php ... 63&p=92855 -- and downloaded the Timesheet v 7.5 that Thierry uploaded in that thread. When I use the Timesheet v 7.5 I get much better results . Look at it: this sheet is neatly rendered and legible. (yes, the numbers are smaller , as they must be to fit inside the small squares , but this is much better than having larger numbers smooshed together in a space that is too small to contain them) So now I'm wondering: is there possibly a BUG in the current version of Timesheet included by default in version 11.0.8 ?
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Hi D.T.,  I only just got access to the right version of TVPaint to try this stuff out. Your last result with the old version looks the best, but do I detect that the names of the drawings seem to correspond always to the frame no? Does that mean that the name of the cells are changed? That is problematic, since I need the xsheet names to correspond to the file names, or what's the point of an xsheet? So far, I am unfortunately going to have to type it all in by hand in an excel sheet, even though the various options give correct results. From the Timesheet panel I get no cell names at all, only x's and o's. There's no way I can send this to someone and ask them to figure it all out. Is there any way to get the cell names? I also tried to export as a .csv file. That too is, technically, correct, but all the names of the cells are changed and so you have to use the image exports that go with it, with their names that seem to correspond to the frame number, and they are all .png, which I can't use. I need to send someone an image sequence, and the names of the images must correspond to the names in the xsheet, which also should correspond to the names in my timeline. No renaming, no x's and o's. Is that possible? Thanks.

Janet Perlman wrote: ↑26 Jan 2018, 21:38 . I need to send someone an image sequence, and the names of the images must correspond to the names in the xsheet, which also should correspond to the names in my timeline. No renaming, no x's and o's. Is that possible?

I don't know. As I said before, it puzzles me ... I see the potential, I understand what it's supposed to do , but it's not quite there yet , imo.

Your last result with the old version looks the best, but do I detect that the names of the drawings seem to correspond always to the frame no? Does that mean that the name of the cells are changed?

No, in the example I posted the drawings (instances) on my timeline correspond to the numbers shown on the x-sheet . I always number according to the frame number and whether the animation is ON 1's or ON 2's .... if there's hold I start the numbering again on the frame when the animation resumes.

I didn't name the instances (with an identifying prefix like A-1 , B- 1, C-1 , D-1 , or specific names like HAT-1 , EYES-1 , etc. ) because the squares on the sheet don't have enough room to include those identifying prefixes or names without getting too cramped .

I need to send someone an image sequence, and the names of the images must correspond to the names in the xsheet, which also should correspond to the names in my timeline.

I'm not sure how to do all of that automatically ... Do I understand you correctly that each instance on your timeline has a unique name , it's not just a number that corresponds to the frame number or a Prefix+Number that corresponds to the frame number ? Is it possible to post a screen grab example of your Timeline so I can see what it is you're trying to do ?

I'm wondering if the fastest way would be to fill out a regular (paper) X-sheet that transcribes the instance names from your Timeline to the X-sheet. Then the person on the other end uses that as a guide for importing the image sequence and arranging the images in the correct order ...

Here's a screen grab. By names I mean numbers, but the name for each image is unique. No problem with unique names with TVP, as it always adds the name of the layer as a prefix, so each name is unique. But none of my numbers correspond to the frame number. First I do drawings, and then I retime. I add more tweens where necessary, I take out if I think a hold is long. This is an ongoing process which is part of my animation process. My scenes go through many revisions, and so maybe a month later, I'm back in the scene, making changes. So no, there is no way that the images will correspond to the frame number. They never do. But for some reason when I export, TVP likes to rename everything according to the frame number. I am working with people using Toon Boom Harmony, and also photoshop. I send them a scene, and then there is a correction, and I have to send a new exsheet, along with a few new drawings. Now we're in trouble. Over there, they have a scene with image files, and they all have their unique names, and now everything has a new name. No way this can work. I won't do a paper sheet. I will have to make an excel sheet template and will fill that in. But I was hope to avoid it. I will also consider sending them a screen grab of the timeline, hoping that they can learn to interpret it.

The Timesheet corresponds to Japanese needs.

In your case, you may use the XSV export (Clip : layer structure).

Elodie wrote: ↑29 Jan 2018, 10:03 The Timesheet corresponds to Japanese needs.

On the current version of the Timesheet , is there any way to adjust the size of the font used , so it isn't so cramped ? What do the Japanese studios do when the numbering in their scenes is in triple and quadruple digits ? The sheet becomes unreadable .
The older version (Time Sheet 7.5) was better in that respect -
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In your case, you may use the CSV export (Clip : layer structure).

About the CSV export :

It is also cluttered and difficult to read . Is it possible to refine how the data is imported to the Excel .csv file ?

For example , here is a simple scene with 5 layers: 1.) Eye Blink Line , 2.) Eye Blink Color , 3.) Cat Line , 4.) Cat Color , 5.) BG
Using Mads Juul's Tracker Shortcuts panel , I've named each instance with an identifying Prefix and the Numbering corresponding to the frame numbers.

When I export this to .CSV file , many extra bracketed numbers are inserted , creating a somewhat cluttered, unreadable document :
(on this CSV why is Project Name listed as "Untitled" , when the Project clearly did have a name : CAT_SC_01 . I named it and saved it, so I would expect to see
that name where it says Project Name in the upper left column A , Line 3 . Why does it need all the extra numbers in brackets inserted in front of the instance names ? That just makes the sheet very cluttered .)

It would be so much clearer to have the CSV export look something like this :
To my eyes, this is much cleaner and readable , with some resemblance to what we all know as an X-sheet .

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The extra bracketed numbers inserted seem redundant to me . The first set of bracketed numbers seem to be the Layer number [001] , then the next set of bracketed numbers is the frame number [00009] ... We already have the frame count along the left in Column A . So why insert the frame number again in front of the instance name in each column ? We can see how many layers there are , so the layer number doesn't need to be inserted in front of the instance name. If those extra bracketed numbers could be eliminated and instead just have the instance name in the columns , it would be cleaner .

However, if it is not possible to eliminate those extra bracketed numbers that are inserted in front of the instance name , can it be configured to show the instance name in BOLD font for better readability ? And even better , can HOLDS be shown in lighter grey font ? See the next screen shot . This shows the column for the the cat's Eye Blink LIne , which occurs from frame 9 to frame 30 , however the eye drawing 25 is HELD 6 frames, so it only appears in BOLD font at the head on frame 25 , then frames 26 , 27, 28, 29, 30 it is in light grey text . This makes it easy to spot the holds at a glance when reading the Excel sheet.
[click image to see it larger]

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D.T. Nethery wrote: ↑29 Jan 2018, 14:09

Elodie wrote: ↑29 Jan 2018, 10:03 The Timesheet corresponds to Japanese needs.

On the current version of the Timesheet , is there any way to adjust the size of the font used , so it isn't so cramped ? What do the Japanese studios do when the numbering in their scenes is in triple and quadruple digits ? The sheet becomes unreadable .

Well, I've made it so the Timesheet uses a Japanese font which takes less space. I don't know why it's that big on non-japanese versions though... I don't know if I can change that easily without interfering with the "intented" font, but I'll check when I'll have the time.

About the numbers: they represent the instances names: in Japan, they always name their instances with numbers: thus, they never go higher than 2 digits: they split the scene so it doesn't become too long.

Thierry wrote: ↑29 Jan 2018, 14:31 About the numbers: they represent the instances names: in Japan, they always name their instances with numbers: thus, they never go higher than 2 digits: they split the scene so it doesn't become too long.

Really ? So they never have a scene longer than 99 drawings ?! If the scene goes longer than 99 drawings they split the scene and start over at drawing 1 ? That seems ... well, I don't know what to say, I guess I really don't understand that procedure at all ... I've seen the X-sheets in software like Toonz and RETAS that were previously popular software in Japanese animation ... the columns on those digital X-sheets in Toonz and RETAS did not have that 2-digit restriction ...

For example , here is the X-sheet in OpenToonz , with a scene that goes up to three-digits (105). The X-sheet in OpenToonz goes into 5 digits .
Well, anyway, that's none of my business, but the earlier version 7.5 did handle 3 digit numbers in a legible way. If you could fix the newer version to adjust the font size it would be useful . With the font size used presently , even 2-digit numbers get too cramped to be legible.

D.T. Nethery wrote: ↑29 Jan 2018, 14:42 Really ? So they never have a scene longer than 99 drawings ?! If the scene goes longer than 99 drawings they split the scene and start over at drawing 1 ? That seems ... well, I don't know what to say, I guess I really don't understand that procedure at all ... I've seen the X-sheets in software like Toonz and RETAS that were previously popular software in Japanese animation ... the columns on those digital X-sheets in Toonz and RETAS don't have that 2-digit restriction ...

In Japan, work is segmented so 1 episode of 20 minutes (minus opening and ending scenes) is actually divided into 300 scenes (called "cuts"). You need between 3000 to 3500 drawings for 1 episode.
That is why, the timesheet doesn't need to be that long.

Generally about 20 animators are working on the drawings. It is easier this way to manage : if there is a mistake, you just need to correct one little part of the animation rather than the whole scene. Also, working in small parts allows you to send the drawings quickly to the next department (coloring, compositing...) or when the animator fails to send his work on time, to call somebody else quickly to pick over.

Moreover, they re-use a lot of drawings, so the numbers are not raising up.

I have all the same questions, D.T. This is what I get when I make an xsheet. There are no numbers at all, only x's and o's. It's totally useless. I see that at least you got numbers, and I don't know how you did it. The older xsheet panel that you shared, which at least has the nicer looking printout. I downloaded it but I don't know how to install it. Any tips? Thanks.

Janet Perlman wrote: ↑29 Jan 2018, 15:27 I have all the same questions, D.T. This is what I get when I make an xsheet. There are no numbers at all, only x's and o's. It's totally useless. I see that at least you got numbers, and I don't know how you did it. The older xsheet panel that you shared, which at least has the nicer looking printout. I downloaded it but I don't know how to install it. Any tips? Thanks.

To install the older version, download the file Sheet_7-5.tvpx from this topic:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9663&p=92855

drag and drop the file Sheet_7-5.tvpx to an open TVPaint project window and follow the prompts to install. Follow the instructions in Thierry's first post in the topic:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9663&p=92855

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To get the X's and 0's to show as numbers on the sheet you need to mark them on the Timeline with the Image Marks (so for example, all Keys are marked with RED Image Mark , all Inbetweens are marked with GREEN Image Mark .
[click on images to enlarge]

The first time you generate the Timesheet by clicking on button "Sheet Key" it shows all the Keys (that have an Image Mark) , with the blank inbetween frames
shown as X's . When you have completed the Inbetweens those are also given Image Marks and then click on button "Sheet Inbetweens" , which generates a new set of columns
showing the KEY drawing numbers (circled in red) and the Inbetween numbers (not circled) . You must add a MARK OUT on the last frame (in this case frame 120) to have the RED line showing where the scene ends -
The new version doesn't work because the Font is too large , which makes it cramped and unreadable . (so this could actually be considered a Bug Report)
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Hi, Janet -

I think I might have a solution for you. It came to me when discussing a similar issue in this topic: https://www.tvpaint.com/forum/viewtopic ... 10&t=11231 .

Here's your issue as I understand it : You are animating in TVPaint , but you have collaborators coloring your animation drawings (or adding other elements ? efx animation ?) in TB and/or Photoshop , so you need to be able to export the animation line art and have them be able to import it into either the TB timeline or the PS timeline with the same timing (i.e. the animaton exposures ON 1's , ON 2's , ON 3's or 4's OR longer HOLDS , etc. )

I'm going to try this step by step and write it down as I go:

I think the solution may be to name the instances with an identifying Prefix (for instance a character named "Bob" would have the instances named as B1, B3 , B5 , B7 etc. whereas the other character in the scene named Wilma would have instances named W1, W3 , W5 , W7 , etc. ) and the instances are numbered to match the frame number , using a handy little custom panel by Mads Juul called "Tracker Panel Shortcuts" , which among other things can be used to auto-rename/renumber instances with a custom Prefix and number the instances to match the frame number . So animation exposed on 2's would be like this , starting with B1 , which is held for 12 frame: B1_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ B13_ B15_B17_B19_B21_B23_B25 , then if it switches to 1's , it would continue B26 B27 B28 B29 B30 B31 B32 (resuming on 2's) B33_B35_B37_B39_B41 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (B41 holds 8 frames), B43_B45_B49_B51, etc. If you had frames on 4's it would be like this B53 _ _ _ B57 _ _ _ B61 _ _ _ B65_ _ _ B69 _ _ _ B73 , etc. Ok ? So it's the classical way of numbering drawings and an X-sheet , what Richard Williams describes as "The Best Numbering System" which he got from Milt Kahl, but most of the Disney animators used it . This system always keeps the drawing numbers matched to continuous frame numbers .
[click image to see larger]

Get Mads' 'Tracker Panel Shortcuts" here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7132&p=73241

So now every layer has it's own name and every instance on that layer has an identifying Prefix letter and is numbered to the frame.

Now, if we go to Export > Clip Layers Structure > JSON (.json + images) it will export each layer to a separate folder and the exported images will be only the head of each instance.

However, because we've numbered each instance according to the frame number , I would hope it would be an easy task to import each of the layers into the TB X-sheet (Import > Images > Vectorize) and then adjust for the proper number of frames exposed on the TB X-sheet . (for an entire block of animation On 2's or On 4's , whatever the case may be , it's easy to select all and change Exposure to 2's in the TB X-sheet menu ... obviously if it's all On 1's no change in exposure must be made ... for HOLDS you can manually click & drag it out for the number of frames indicated for the hold . Let's try it ... right-click on TB X-sheet > Import > Images > select image sequence > Import and Vectorize in B&W ...

Ughhh ... full stop , darn it ... here's a major roadblock: everything worked perfectly up to the point when I imported the image sequence into TB . TB did not respect the image file names B1_ B3_B5_B7 _ _ _ B11 _ _ _ B15_ _ _ _ _ _ _ B23_B25_B27_ _ _ B31_ _ _ B35_B37_B39 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ B47_ etc , and instead it renumbered each imported image 1 , 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 , 11, 12, 13, 14 , etc. so there's no way to see at a glance what the exposure of each image is intended to be . This is a bust if there is no way to get TB to respect the file names .

Good news is that when importing the image sequence into Photoshop , PS does respect the file names, it doesn't renumber them like TB does. I never work with the Animation Timeline in PS , so I don't know if there is a way to select a group of frames and adjust the exposure (to be all ON 2's. or all ON 4's , or whatever it may be ...) The only way I can see to do it is to manually click and drag to adjust each frame to the number of exposures (1's , 2's , 4's, 6's , etc.) desired , which is very slow. There must be an automated way (?) but I don't know it . For some reason Photoshop's default is to import each image exposed for 120 frames/5 seconds on the Timeline (why Photoshop, WHY ?! That's just stupid ; why not have the default be for 1 frame each , then the user can adjust the exposure as needed) , so to adjust my imported frames to be the same as they are numbered in TVPaint and in the image sequence , I had to manually click and drag each frame to be exposed for the correct number of frames on the PS timeline . Yuck. That would take too much time.

In this example , I had a sequence of drawings exposed ON 4's (eventually to be inbetweened ON 2's) , but for now the numbering is ON 4's, matching the frame numbers 1 ____ 5 ____ 9 ____13 ____ 17, etc. You can see that PS respected the file names/numbers . But I had to manually adjust each drawing to be exposed for 4 frames on the PS timeline . I never use Photoshop for animation (or for much of anything else, I just use TVPaint for most things) so I may be missing something obvious about how to automatically adjust the exposure of each frame . The Anim Dessin add-on toolbar you see in the screenshot below does have a [ - ] and [+] button to take away or add exposures by clicking the button, but it only works one at a time as far as I can tell, unless there's some keyboard shortcut I don't know about which would apply the - or + to multiple selected frames all at once. There must be such a shortcut , right ? But where it is , I don't know ...
So I think it would work in Photoshop , if you can find a way to select a block of drawings and automatically convert them to be exposed ON 2's , 3's, 4's or whatever they may be, instead of having to manually adjust each drawing, one at a time .

Or, if you can find a way to force TB to respect the image sequence file names instead of renaming them when it imports & vectorizes them , it would work. I hope maybe it is a step in the right direction for you ... good luck.

Thierry wrote: ↑29 Jan 2018, 14:31

D.T. Nethery wrote: ↑29 Jan 2018, 14:09

Elodie wrote: ↑29 Jan 2018, 10:03 The Timesheet corresponds to Japanese needs.

On the current version of the Timesheet , is there any way to adjust the size of the font used , so it isn't so cramped ? What do the Japanese studios do when the numbering in their scenes is in triple and quadruple digits ? The sheet becomes unreadable .

Well, I've made it so the Timesheet uses a Japanese font which takes less space. I don't know why it's that big on non-japanese versions though... I don't know if I can change that easily without interfering with the "intended" font, but I'll check when I'll have the time.

I hope you can fix the font size issue for non-Japanese versions. In the meantime a workaround to make the X-sheet more legible is to insert a BLANK (untitled) layer between each animation layer , so it adds a space between each layer on the generated exposure sheet (I'm assuming "Timesheet" is the preferred Japanese term ? In my 30 years in the industry I've never heard an Exposure Sheet referred to as a "timesheet" ... X-Sheet , sometimes Ex-Sheet , or Dope Sheet (mostly in Canadian and U.K. usage , rare for U.S. studios to refer to "dope sheet" , the more common term is X-sheet) .

Also , it is more legible if the layers are named with simple one-letter prefixes - A - B - C - D - E - F , etc. Two-letter prefixes like OL (overlay) or BG (background) work .

In the example shown below , I have a scene with 6 animation layers ( A- B - C - D - E- F) plus an OL layer and a BG layer . Notice each layer has the untitled blank layer inserted, to provide for a space on the generated X-sheet (timesheet).
The old version Sheet 7.5 is shown for comparison for how much cleaner the numbers read . (this also has the extra blank layers inserted to create spacing between each layer)

A question: what is the purpose of including the Dialog and Camera columns ? Because as far as I can see no Dialog or Camera information from the TVPaint project is generated on the sheet . So , to me those columns seem to be extraneous , taking up valuable space that could be allocated to making the "boxes" on the X-sheet columns larger so the numbers are not so cramped . Do the Japanese users annotate the sheets by hand writing notes in the Dialog and Camera columns after they print out the sheets ? (does this mean they have some animators or inbetweeners drawing on paper , so the X-sheet is printed out , then Dialog and Camera notes are added for the reference of the artists working on paper ?)

If those two columns are going to be kept as part of the Timesheet , then at least abbreviate them to Dial and Cam , to save space, because notice how cramped the words are in the current version .

D.T. Nethery wrote: ↑01 Feb 2018, 16:52 A question: what is the purpose of including the Dialog and Camera columns ? Because as far as I can see no Dialog or Camera information from the TVPaint project is generated on the sheet . So , to me those columns seem to be extraneous , taking up valuable space that could be allocated to making the "boxes" on the X-sheet columns larger so the numbers are not so cramped . Do the Japanese users annotate the sheets by hand writing notes in the Dialog and Camera columns after they print out the sheets ? (does this mean they have some animators or inbetweeners drawing on paper , so the X-sheet is printed out , then Dialog and Camera notes are added for the reference of the artists working on paper ?)

Indeed, they add an extra layer in the timesheet project with indications for camera moves and dialog.
Most studios are not working fully in digital yet. After the key animation is done in TVPaint, they print out the drawings and the timesheet to pass it to the animation supervisor who will check the drawing and timing on paper.
Some studios who are adapting to a full-digital work-flow still need the timesheet for working with After Effects (especially indications for camera moves are more relevent in this case) so they don't print it out.