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I like what you wrote Pablo.
It's true: until you find the right "different" person to produce your film, it is better not to do it. that is unless you are capable of pulling a film completely independently, like Paul and Sandra do, and a few others here. And to find that different person is a task that could be either quick or long - you cannot predict where you'll meet this person, or what will bring him over to you. You can only bet that if you try the regular pipes, such person won't appear.
It's important in the meantime to keep doing. just do. make small things. personal. concurrent. relevant. Little flicks that will keep your mental and techinical skills up to date, and which will accumulate as works on which you can attract the different producer who will be impressed with your body of work.
saying that, I seem to fail doing that latter suggestion. The daily grind and my professional choices leave me very little room to do those little (but important) films.

Spot on, Asaf... and to that I add that it is so important to keep doing those little things that I kept my prices way low. That way I got a lot of films to do, to learn upon and to grow a large track record. There is only one element I miss in Pablo's essay, which is the usefulness component. It is important to select a film that is useful to many people (ideally to all people but such a film has never appeared). If all one wants is to make a statement, it can be a recipe to failure. There's an expression for that, which is "target audience". To target "Grownups" is too broad a theme of usefulness.

But if your main goal is to reach as many people as possible and not to gain fame or wealth, then a theatrical release is not the ideal venue anymore; it's the Internet.

If you need too many people to work on your film, you have the wrong story, and maybe even the wrong technique and wrong drawing style.

And just one more note; why be so secretive about the subject or the the story if your main passion is to express yourself?

I am working on the story of Joshua Slocum based on his book which is in public domain. Anyone can copy my idea and there will only be more films based on the same idea, but only one of them will be mine. There is no reason to fear competition because competition is useful, particularly if you feel you have a unique way of expressing yourself -- if you don't have that, then why bother at all?

So I'd say wait until you have something so special and unique and useful to say that you can't contain yourself anymore and you just have to come out with it in a way you can make happen by yourself (or in a crew of 2 or 3). Then everything will be in place and you are ready to start.

Paul Fierlinger wrote: ...I am working on the story of Joshua Slocum based on his book which is in public domain. Anyone can copy my idea and there will only be more films based on the same idea, but only one of them will be mine. There is no reason to fear competition because competition is useful, particularly if you feel you have a unique way of expressing yourself -- if you don't have that, then why bother at all?

Pablo's case is way different than yours : if I'm correct, he's the author of his story, where you are adapting an existing (already edited) story from another author.

Paul Fierlinger wrote:... So I'd say wait until you have something so special and unique and useful to say that you can't contain yourself anymore and you just have to come out with it in a way you can make happen by yourself (or in a crew of 2 or 3). Then everything will be in place and you are ready to start.

you're naturally preaching for your own way, but there're different ways to make films ...of course, working with a big crew isn't that easy and requires a lot more competences, (directing animators working all around the world is quite a big job I think), but with this way, you can gather more artistic competences and push up the level of your own project, the best symphonies will be very flat and pitiful if only played by a one-man band .
Beside that, you can achieve a full length feature in a year or so, instead of 4 or 5 with a narrow team.

the best symphonies will be very flat and pitiful if only played by a one-man band .

I'd rather listen to chamber music played by masters than a school band playing a symphony. I'd say it would be next to impossible for someone who has never made a feature film to raise the money to put together a large studio group of experienced animators, whereas to find 2 or 3 dedicated enthusiasts is realistic -- if the story is right for them as well. How do you find them if you keep the story a secret? It makes no difference if my source is a book or my own story. I'd say if there is a difference, it is easier for someone else to copy my idea to animate the same book than it would be to copy something I wrote myself.

I am not trying to preach anything to anybody but just sharing my own experience.

Hi guys!

interesting stuff had being said!

to Malcooning:
yes I agree, it's difficult to find the right producer, and like you said the "regular pipes" are just filled up with "regular producers" if you know what I mean , but I'm searching by some other means so......sooner or latter I'll find the right person.
I have the same situation here, my professional life it's getting in the middle all the time, but either way I managed to do a lot of work already......scripting, character design, animation tests, and a teaser that its still a work in progress.....so little by little I have things to show to the people interested in producing.
But it's a gigantic task.......so much to do and so little time.....right now I have to stop again 'cause I got another animation job for a feature film and I shall start it in some weeks......so my project will go to rest for a while one more time.

To ZigOtto:
Yes you're right I'm the author of the story.

To Paul:
I guess Paul we have different points of view on the same subject........and that's fine by me.
I had this kind of discussions with all my friends who are independent filmmakers.......it's simple, we have two different ways to do things.
I respect and I lessen to your points of view, and I wouldn't question your ways and procedures, because they work for you and most important, you feel comfortable to achieve something with them.....so it's healthy for you....who am I to contradict this ways?!
But on the other side it's me.....and I have different views of how things have to be done o achieve what I want.

You suggest that I may be doing wrong many things and pass judgment on some other things without knowing me, either my personal and professional background.
That's something I don't wanna do, but allow me to defend my opinion now that I sense that is being "attacked".

If you need too many people to work on your film, you have the wrong story, and maybe even the wrong technique and wrong drawing style.

Well Paul, I think that the story it's right and the technique and the artistic style it's what the project needs, I've been around for a long time working has a animation director and character animator, both traditional and CG, from "big budget" feature films to "friendly very-creative" independent short films, and believe me when I tell you that what I had chosen for my project it's what suits it better.
With this comment you made, you are taking position from your point of view, because you have your way and it works for you, both your style and your type of stories.
But in my opinion you are doing the same thing that a producer that ask you to do something like "schrek", just because you taste it and you like it doesn't mean that it's good for someone else......and again it works for you but not for me.
I respect your opinion like I said but I don't consent this "extremes", I mean "my procedures are right, yours...... because are different than mine are wrong".
And to close this, I evaluated what my project needs very carefully, and if I change the amount of people needed, the style and technique......then the story should change too, and it is not an option, I want this particular story and if to do it I have to change it, well....... I said it before, I prefer not to do it.
We move for what I can see in different circles, and thats ok.

Regarding the secrecy:
I understand what you say, despiting you comments about "unique way of expressing", that again you don't know my professional background to refer to if I have it or if don't, I make it clear in a latter post, I don't feel comfortable "telling my tale" in forums.
You want to produce? you want to be part of it in some way?, then send me a email, I then will evaluate if you're suitable for it and then I'll fill you in the details.........but forums are not the way.
I respect that you tell about your projects here or in some other places, but I didn't ask for it, and when you ask that I tell you mine, I reply that I don't feel comfortable with it, so please respect my position.

I can refer to some other things that you suggested, but I don't have the time to continue writing, I'm working until the new feature film starts in some short films from those independent filmmakers friends that I've mentioned before.
As you can see I move between the two worlds.

So in resume, you have your ways and I have mine, let's just leave it like that.

Thanks to ya'll

Cheers!

Since you have ended the discussion by delegating yourself to the final word I am compelled to defend my choice of words anyway:

By wrong story and wrong technique I mean exactly that -- wrong for your circumstances. Just look at yourself, running around, supporting yourself in the frenzy of working on other people's films and your life controlled by the deadlines of other productions with no time left to work on your own, big production. Which is exactly the proof of what I mean by "wrong". It's just physically impossible to accomplish no matter how accomplished you are as an animator. What I am saying has nothing to do with the content of the story or the level of your professional experience except that you have chosen a story and production style which is beyond the means of a person who isn't independently wealthy and has to survive on a day job.

I make the films I make not because I'm not interested in big productions but I understand the realities of my life style and keep my dreams in scale to match the way I have chosen to live.

I don't scale my dreams. After all, what's the sense of dreaming if it isn't bigger than life? And with the same chances of being hit over by a car tonight, I might meet a producer willing to try his luck with me. Once a project gets realized, there's so many things to get changed and cut anyway, so why should I start with something small when it will become smaller anyway? I think it works just the opposite: start with something big enough, so it will attract the kind of people who's contribution will eventually make it even bigger.

But aren't you setting yourself up for failure? More often than not, your over-sized dream will be considered just that, a pipe dream with little connection to reality and therefore creating distrust in the minds of the proposed people holding the purse. They might easily interpret you from your words as someone who doesn't understand the realities of production -- perhaps the way I have viewed navapalm's dream.

Hi Paul,

You're right in a way, I understand your opinion on the subject..........but what I'm trying to tell you it is that there it is some other ways to do things, not only "do what you can", because if it is by this fact.....then there it's no hope for anything.
By following this way of thought you are referring I wouldn't achieve anything in my career.
I.E. has a animator what happens when you realize that your drawing skills are not developed enough to achieve a good acting scene because you don't know how to draw a head from every angle?
You just limit your scene to the angle that you know how to draw? or you just try and try until you learn to draw better?
I prefer the second one.

So just changing the project to fit it to our limitations doesn't seem a option to me.
I take it has a easy way out if I'll should do that, and I don't like easy ways out.........I always try to achieve the best.

yes I struggle between my profession and my dreams, fair enough for me, I live in this world, and in this society, and I have to play by those rules, I accept those rules.
I'm realistic too, and I'm aware that it's difficult to do what I want to do, difficult never impossible has you claimed.

You think it's impossible to achieve something like I want to achieve?
Well thats your opinion, fair has it is.

I don't know Paul.......I said it before, I had this tiresome discussion already much many times with independent filmmakers friends......and it has no point..........because it seems like those wars between vegetarians and carnivores.....you know what I mean? no point in discuss over it, you have your ways and I have mine.....you have your believes and I have mine.....simple has that......we would not agree in any of this subjects.

So I respect your ways the same I respect the ways of my friends that are on the same boat you are.........

Just understand that are others sailing in other boats next to you, same ocean different boats, thats all.

Cheers!

Just understand that are others sailing in other boats next to you, same ocean different boats, thats all.

Some sink in a storm before they reach the other side, some get tossed about a lot but make it through. Bon voyage to us all!

Amen to that Paul.

Sorry to disturbe.
But interesting discussion.

After working three years on 4 min I'm thinking a lot about which way to choose now.
The last years were full of sumultanious jobs I wasn't able to meet the requirements.
Raising two little children while working on my animation film while keeping the house cleen.
(in fact i never met the requirement of the last.)
Since my husband cares for our money to live my work as an artist is forced to the importance of a hobby.
Shure it's nice not to be resposible for the money to keep your family alive, but the artist in me revolts.
I had a lot of frustrated moments about it.
But then I ricognized some points which cached my interest.
What if my art is my hobby?
What if I spend the next 10 years, little step after little step in my free time on an own Idea?
I am able to tell the stories I want, I am able to draw the animation I want, it is just another dimension of time.
Isn't it real freedom, not to be bound to earn money with it?
Isn't it the buddhistic thougth of the way as the target?
What if I spend the next 30 years on a feature film?
I will draw until my eyes get blind or my hand gets parkinson.
And I will die satisfied.
Vera

It's like a prose poem Vera about the animator condition (and beyond : the artist condition). I like that.

Are you whistling in the dark? You will never be able to deny yourself the fact that unlike painting, your self-picked art is an art of mass communications -- . I too, more than anything enjoy the drawing process, but I clearly have a future audience and the income derived from their interest in my subject set firmly in my mind. I believe it is important to be useful to others; to create without that goal in mind your art is dead long before you will be and who wants to be a fisherman in a sea of dead fish and keep hauling them in anyway, just because there is enough food growing on the trees everywhere around?