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On the contrary, customers care a lot which kind of DRM a software uses. And mentioning on the website that TVP uses a dongle doesn't hurt.

Mark, how much is listing the need for a dongle common practice in marketing?

It is considered good style to mention the kind of DRM used, if any.

First and foremost I didn't buy TVpaint for marketing. I have no use for marketing. When a product does not live up to the marketing I return it. Unfortunately I can't return TVPaing even if TVPaint development would refund me since I paid an addition 30% in taxes and duties. My point in this discussion is not to return the software.

Just to let you know you can download a full version working without a dongle on the net. The reason I bought it was I support software which meets my needs.

Now if I take the car analogy from a previous post, the dongle is not required to run the software. It's not the key to the car. It's the anti-theft device installed by the dealer which would require you to repurchase the car at full price even though you are still in possession of the car, keys and proof of purchase. It does not stop thieves they just remove the requirement to run the software with the dongle. It only gets in the way of honest paying clients.

Now anyone who would invest their time and energy to create and build their future on pirated software is an idiot because all the time and effort in building your assets depends on a software that you have no support on and years of work can be destroyed just by the lack of an upgrade path. Same goes with a dongle. More money and energy will be spent on creating with TVPaint than what TVPaint costs. Losing the dongle on a deadline can be disastrous. As for the hobbyist the price of the software will not encourage the average hobbyist to purchase anyway.

It's verry funny that we are having this discussion on a OSS forum and we are dealing with one of the most restrictive DRM technologies around. I would NOT buy a car with it and the only time I buy software with DRM is when I'm fooled into it. DRM needs to be indicated clearly.

You should indicate that your software requires a dongle to work so people can make an honest decision if they are willing to purchase it honestly. Again I am not a thief and the dongle makes me feel like one....

So are you saying that if TVPaint gave you a full refund including the 30%, you would accept this and get a crack to continue your work with?

Just to let you know you can download a full version working without a dongle on the net.

They are illegal copies of the software. You can also download illegal copies of Microsoft Windows and Autodesk Maya. Different companies handle the potential for piracy in different ways. Whether or not a dongle is used isn't going to change that. No methodology is going to be perfect.

idragosani wrote:

Just to let you know you can download a full version working without a dongle on the net.

Different companies handle the potential for piracy in different ways. Whether or not a dongle is used isn't going to change that. No methodology is going to be perfect.

Amen. There are only imperfect users who will always be around. I almost wrote customers, but a crack user is a thief, plain and simple and not a customer. Anyone who considers the advantages of a crack to the disadvantages of a dongle is not a very trustworthy individual anyway. I suggest that MeNext consider more empathy with the plight of a producer of intellectual property than with the crack perpetrator.

Paul Fierlinger wrote:... but a crack user is a thief, plain and simple and not a customer.

you're right, but the picture isn't so stiff, so "Black & White"
imo, everybody here knows or have known some ex-thieves (crack-users) who became a regular customer "at their times"
(when they get money for their first job f.i.)
don't get me wrong, saying that, I'm not pleading for crack and copyright violation ... just a statement .

Software producers have the advantage of owning a product which is in constant development so the cracks become outdated (and are always very buggy anyway). Movie producers don't have that advantage, though it would be nice if I could keep on improving my creation (but keep getting paid for it as well) until I would achieve the making of the best movie of all times and drop dead.

But as long as there would be hackers following me and cracking each next upgrade of my fantastic movie, more and more "customers" would be acquiring the cracks of my upgrades, justifying their nefarious behavior by claiming they will one day pay for the legitimate version of the most perfect movie of all times, which should be around the time of my death at which point I will not have the opportunity to thank them for their generosity.

Paul Fierlinger wrote:Movie producers don't have that advantage

Unless you are George Lucas

I'm not?!

MeNext wrote: Just to let you know you can download a full version working without a dongle on the net. The reason I bought it was I support software which meets my needs.

Again I am not a thief and the dongle makes me feel like one....

Then what is the point of stating the obvious fact : "you can download a full version working without a dongle on the net " ? Of course one CAN do that . It's called stealing.
But the honest user will not download a cracked version , so that's irrelevant . Cracked versions are a painful fact of life for TVP Co. to deal with as best they can , but downloading a crack (just because you "can") is not an option for anyone who cares about the continued development of this software.

However, I do agree that it would probably be a good idea for TVP to emphasize on the website that a dongle is necessary and that the dongle must be carefully guarded against loss or theft . I mentioned this to a student recently and the student had no idea that her dongle could not be replaced without paying again for a full license of TVPaint.

Honesty needs to go both ways. The dongle should be mentioned...

I do not expect to change anyone's mind on DRM.

For now I found another solution. If you decide to change your policy on DRM you have my email.

Thank you for the discussion

I've heard of buyer's remorse, but this is just silly. Going back to the car analogy, we have someone who (presumably) bought a car, then regretted the purchase and came back to the dealer to say he should have stolen it. Honestly, dongles are inconvenient, especially for myself as a tablet pc user, so I wouldn't blame someone with a valid license for seeking a workaround (though that would, effectively, propagate pirated software). Finding the workaround and then throwing a fit and demanding a refund, though, is just juvenile and criminal.

I'm curious as to whether this MeNext character actually bought a license. If so, I have never seen someone get so upset over a dongle. Yes, it's difficult to replace, but normal people just take care of valuable things.

Dear MeNext,

I'm currently in an airport, and won't enter into a deep debate, I need to keep some of my energy for my work and familly once I will be back in France.

Honesty needs to go both ways. The dongle should be mentioned...

I just would like to mention that we have made a few changes in the online store this summer (for exemple the students can do a grouped purchase and receive their software at school directly), and yes the dongle information has unfortunalety disappeared.
It was always mentionned in past, I think it is not since end august. (even if we added a few other stuff like the shipping information, etc ...)
You have one point here, we are about to add the fact that depending of the situation (upgrade or new product), you will receive a dongle.
After, it's up to you to go into the FAQ to read what is a dongle, and what it does offer. (for exemple the ability to have a MAC, PC and recently even an Linux at home, and use the software anywhere you want. You buy a software, it should not depend on the OS you are using. As a software buyer myself, I like this way or thinking, because I might switch and use an other OS later. I try to be open to everything)

After that, saying that the dongle is a bad and non-used solution prove a real mis-knowledge of the industry, freelance and school needs.
I was speaking with the tech guys from CalArts a few days ago, who explained me how our dongles solutions and floatting licenses management were clever, and also that they had to stop to purchase some 3D software (I won't give any name here) because it was using a DRM or such apparented protection systems ... un-manageable on a network.

We have to face so many different requests from so many customers, and at the moment the dongle is the solution we are providing. It's not perfect, but it works.
We might add some other solutions in the future, but we also need time to improve our software technology and interface. As usual, our dev team try to find the best compromise between everything. (it's not as if we had 10 people working at full time on the protection system ... just count the number of cow avatar, inthe forum, you will know approximatively how many we are to do everything : development, sales, accounting, training, website, etc ...)

I won't go into the piracy subject, but you can believe me, with a simple serial number or DRM as protection, our software would be on all the pirate servers less than 2 weeks after it's official release.

Oh, I forgot to say that about 99 % of the dongles are actually found when we send an email to explain to the user that we won't replace them ...

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@ v.veidt : We have to find solutions for the TabletPC users. OK. we will later or sooner. It require some specific developpement.
Safenet has just created a new small dongle (a few minimeters not more, things do evolve)

@ Peter : A dongle is much more expensive than 20€. Also : we need to prepare, record,register and set them, and test with each new OS for each new release of the OS (thanks Mr Jobs ... for the Mac OS 10.6.4 : a real nightmare). And I don't talk about the network ones (400 € for the most expensive, I don't remember exactly).