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Hello

Beginner on TVpaint, I've been discovering this great soft for a few weeks.

But I'm starting to see some performance limitations, maybe due to my misuse...

To describe the situation, the project is edited on the following material:

- IMac2020 (BigSur 11.2.3) / Processor : Intel I7 8-core 10th gen at 3.8GHZ / Memory : 128 GB of RAM at 2667 MHz DDR4 / GPU : Readon Pro 5700 XT 16GB

- Device : Wacom Cintinq Pro 24

- I am using a single 512 GB SSD hard drive, the one from the computer.

Despite the performance above the minimum requirements for TVPaint, I see a lot of slowdowns, during:

- switching from one clip to another one in the "Project mode" (10-20 secs)
- opening a clip (10-20 secs)
- a backup (allow several minutes)
- a video export (allow several hours for a 20 min export in .avi)

I saw that my project file was 15GB. I used many images imported into the library, ans I delete them to arrive at a 10GB file.

After that, it's a little faster during loadings... but a little...

My project is about 180 clips, a quarter of which have ten layers, but spread over very few instances at the moment.

I can't continue to work in this way... Where the problem comes from ?

Do you have some tips for better use?

Thanks for your help !

Mael

Hello Mael,

I have a few ideas on why the software is slow.

Can you tell me what are the dimensions of your project?
I think the main issue resides with the fact that your project is a 10Gb project with 180 clips, which is not recommanded. I would advise you to split your clips in different projects to reduce slowdowns.

Hello Thierry,

Thanks for your reply,

The dimensions are : 7680 x 4320 (24.000 fps) - ratio pixel 1.000

Despite my computer, is it too much ?

So, the better solution for you will be split the project in several files...

Maël

Boy, that's quite large.

OK, you have to remember that the stored project is much smaller than the opened project. You can calculate this (approximately) like this:

One layer of 7680 x 4320 px needs about 95 MB of RAM.
One second (24 fps) of this would occupy 2.28 GB already, if animated on 1's.
Say your clip is 10 sec long, that makes it 22.8 GB large.
And it contains more than 1 layer, so if it's 5 layers it's 114 GB.
And that's just 1 clip. No wonder TVP needs some time to load the next clip!

(Of course you don't have 10 layers all on 1's in each clip, this would be the possible maximum. But for a ballpark calculation this is good enough.)

So yes, it is quite advisable to divide this big chunk into much smaller projects with no more than, say, 5 clips in it.

(I wonder if it's possible to get an "opened size" calculator for clips, counting all unique images in a clip, plus library stuff?)

Agree with slowtiger, with a project having these kind of dimensions, dividing your project into small projects would be a good solution.

slowtiger wrote: ↑16 Sep 2021, 16:37(I wonder if it's possible to get an "opened size" calculator for clips, counting all unique images in a clip, plus library stuff?)

I don't know, but that would be nice!
We'll see if it's possible

8k is huge (its 16 times as big as standard HD !) so its not strange that it will be slow.
i would indeed work with single clip projects.
Multiple clips are great when you are doing a storyboard edit, but for this you do not need this kind or resolution, HD (1080) is enough for that.

Thanks for yours advices and estimation. Slowtiger, I'm curious about your meaning to calculate because I don't realize how much bitmap layers and instances require of memory.

I'm discovering animation step by step. In first, I began by the largest resolution for try the limits to reduce for my necessities after that.

Ok, I made 3 rescales of my project, 2 downscales and 1 upscale : 8k to 4K UHD // 4K UHD to HD1080p // HD1080p to 4K UHD. The performance is quite different but I'm embarrassed to work in HD because I don't go back in 4K without losses.

Il could make my storyboard in HD thumbnails and enlarge them for began animation on them, but already I draw the layout with details in some clips.

Is there any tool in TvPaint of Detail Preserving Upscale ?

Exemples of rescaling :

8K to 4K.png[/attachment]

With pixel art you definitely don't want to get into upscaling. It will degrade the quality of the image. So if you went from 8K to 1080p then upscaled it again to 4K the image quality will look bad. Even upscaling 2K to 4K will degrade the image . But starting from original 4K project to output at 2K is no problem (just don't try to to upscale it again to 4K or higher)

I've worked comfortably with projects in TVPaint that are 4K (4096 x 3072) , but not with more than 5 or 6 clips in the project. I have stretched that occasionally to have a 4K resolution project with as many as 12 clips , project size 8GB -11GB , but at that point the performance starts to suffer (very laggy playback and long waits when opening or saving the project file) . As a rule I try to keep 4K scenes as single projects , not grouped together . If I need to see scenes in continuity I'll output the individual scenes to .MOV or .MP4 files and cut them together in continuity in an editing program. My usual procuedure would be to do my storyboard/animatic at 1920 x 1080 (or sometimes even as low as 1280 x 720) to keep the file size lighter when working with multiple clips for an animatic. Once the running time of the film is established by the animatic I'll create a separate TVPaint project file for each scene , sized at 4K resolution. (if need be I'll import the animatic version of the scene in a movie clip and use it as a reference layer for doing my rough layouts . 1920 x 1080 storyboard panels enlarged to 4096 x 2304 will be a bit fuzzy (soft), but usable as reference images. These reference storyboard panels are not going to be seen as final images, so the softness doesn't matter.)

I've never had very good luck with project files at 6K or 8K resolution. For a short scene without many layers it can work , but once it gets into multiple layers and hundreds of frames , the playback performance suffers to the point where I can't view the work or TVPaint starts crashing.

Thanks Nethery,

This can be a solution.

Personally, I start from a very schematic drawing to layout directly, and need 4K right now.

So, I've create separated TVPaint projets and build my animatic into small units.

Do we have the possibility to change manually the clip numeration ?

Mael wrote: ↑17 Sep 2021, 06:55 Do we have the possibility to change manually the clip numeration ?

Double click on the clip/scene title bar and manually change the scene number or label there.



.

And this one ?

Mael wrote: ↑22 Sep 2021, 21:52And this one ?

That number in the upper left corner refers to SCENE Number (1) , then the CLIP Number (for example: 1/8 ... meaning 1 of 8 clips , or however many clips you have in your SCENE. That number in the upper left corner will update to however many CLIPS/SHOTS you have included in a SCENE.

So for example , below I have two SCENES : SCENE 1 (pink color group) , and SCENE 2 (green color group). There are 8 CLIPS (or Shots) in SCENE 1 and 4 CLIPS (or Shots) in SCENE 2.

The number in the upper right corner of each CLIP is how many frames the clip runs.


.

Thanks Nethery. I ask my question differently : Is it possible to start the numeration in the upper left corner from 2 for exemple instead of 1?

That could allow to work separated projets, one for each scene for exemple, without change the numeration established in the animatic, and without number manually in the clip title our own numbernig.

It's juste a detail but it could save time.

It is not possible to manually change the numeration of the numbers in the upper left corner because those numbers necessarily refer to the SCENE Numbers and the CLIP numbers (how many clips within each SCENE) that make up the totality of the animatic.

In my example here I have 3 SCENES:

SCENE 1 (pink color group) has 8 CLIPS. (the first clip is 1/8 , the second clip is 2/8 , the third clip is 3/8 , and so forth ...)

SCENE 2 (green color group) has 4 CLIPS. (the first clip is 1/4, the second clip is 2/4 , the third clip is 3/4 , the fourth clip is 4/4)

SCENE 3 (yellow color group) has 3 CLIPS. (the first clip is 1/3 , the second clip is 2/3 , the third clip is 3/3 )


(click image to view it larger)

By default you start with one SCENE and one CLIP , so the number at the upper left is 1 - 1/1 (SCENE 1 - CLIP 1 of 1 )
The buttons to the left have options of +1 SCENE (either before or after the current Scene) or +1 CLIP (before or after current Clip).


TVPaint is using the definition of "SCENE" as "a series of shots that together comprise a single, complete and unified dramatic event, action, unit, or element of film narration, or block (segment) of storytelling within a film" , but TVPaint's use of the term "CLIP" is what most live-action filmmakers would call a "SHOT" : "a single, constant take uninterrupted by editing, interruptions or cuts". When you cut , it's the start of a new SHOT (CLIP). A group of CLIPS (SHOTS) make up a SCENE.

When I worked at Disney Feature Animation in the 1987 - 2004 era we used the terminology SEQUENCE and SCENE. So a Sequence would be something like an entire song sequence -- "Part of Your World" from The Little Mermaid , while Scenes referred to the individual shots within that Sequence. Other animation studios I worked at in Canada and Los Angeles area used the same terminology of SEQUENCE and SCENE . What we referred to as a SCENE is what live-action filmmakers and VFX or CG animators would call a SHOT . (and TVPaint calls a CLIP) The terminology of SEQUENCE and SCENE was a holdover from the older Disney animation studio terminology inherited by the "new generation" who started to come into the studio in the 1970's and 80's . I remember on films like "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" , working with Industrial Light & Magic it puzzled the ILM people that the Disney people would refer to "SCENES" , which the ILM people called "SHOTS".