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Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 21 Jun 2024, 09:38
by Hironori Takagi
I received a message from a user in Japan saying that the specifications of KeyFramer FX have changed since before,
and I checked it out. Indeed, even if you hit the same key in two places, the trajectory is different.
In many cases, a straighter trajectory is preferable, but do you know why?
Re: Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 21 Jun 2024, 09:42
by Peter Wassink
Yes!
i noticed this too,
And that was, coincidentally this week, as i tried to answer a forum question on how to do a move in perspective and i could not make it go in a straight line!
in seems as if the Z-axis is broken. it introduces an unexpected and unwanted curve, making this feature unusable.
Re: Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 21 Jun 2024, 11:10
by Peter Wassink
Here is that thread
i removed my explanation there because when i tried it out myself it acted as Hironori described
and not as i remember TVPaint doing it before.
Unless there is some logical reason for this behaviour that i missed, i consider it a bug that should be fixed.
viewtopic.php?t=16476
z-camera is set to 1000:
- z-axis broken.jpg (56.9 KiB) Viewed 3581 times
Re: Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 21 Jun 2024, 14:00
by s.decol
It's not a bug, but more a side effect due to the fact that now transformations of the keyframer are applied from the pivot point. So if you want to make the movement like in 11.7.0 or lower versions, you have to move your pivot point in order to make it stay always at the same place in the space of the drawing area between two keys (as the coordinates of the pivot point are relative to the coordinates of the center). Maybe we could add an option to let the user choose whether the coordinates of the pivot should be relative to the center or should be "global".
Re: Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 21 Jun 2024, 17:37
by Peter Wassink
s.decol wrote: ↑21 Jun 2024, 14:00
It's not a bug, but more a side effect due to the fact that now transformations of the keyframer are applied from the pivot point. So if you want to make the movement like in 11.7.0 or lower versions, you have to move your pivot point in order to make it stay always at the same place in the space of the drawing area between two keys (as the coordinates of the pivot point are relative to the coordinates of the center). Maybe we could add an option to let the user choose whether the coordinates of the pivot should be relative to the center or should be "global".
I don't fully understand your explanation.
i could not make it work in a straight line!?
Did i miss something and can you explain how i would achieve a straight motion in the above example?
I hope you can, but i'm afraid the Offset Pivot solution needs to be looked at again.
Because what is clear is the current behaviour is very disorienting, to the point of rendering the z-function useless.
Re: Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 21 Jun 2024, 17:39
by Peter Wassink
..
Re: Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 21 Jun 2024, 17:46
by kelanhordos
+1 I ran into this problem a while back and couldn't figure out what on earth I was doing wrong. I tried playing with the offset as mentioned above, but I am not sure I understand as if I move the offset it moves the camera bounding box as well. Adding more keys with the offset just makes matters worse as there is more than one curve instead of straight line.
Re: Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 24 Jun 2024, 01:46
by Hironori Takagi
s.decol wrote: ↑21 Jun 2024, 14:00
It's not a bug, but more a side effect due to the fact that now transformations of the keyframer are applied from the pivot point. So if you want to make the movement like in 11.7.0 or lower versions, you have to move your pivot point in order to make it stay always at the same place in the space of the drawing area between two keys (as the coordinates of the pivot point are relative to the coordinates of the center). Maybe we could add an option to let the user choose whether the coordinates of the pivot should be relative to the center or should be "global".
I understand how to calculate the pivot point and set it to a position that does not move,
but I think it is a bit difficult to explain the same method to someone who is not interested in programming and mathematics.
The behavior of 3D layers in Adobe After Effects was also designed to be naturally linear in the same way. I would like to see improvement.
Re: Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 24 Jun 2024, 06:51
by Peter Wassink
Hironori Takagi wrote: ↑24 Jun 2024, 01:46
I understand how to calculate the pivot point and set it to a position that does not move,
but I think it is a bit difficult to explain the same method to someone who is not interested in programming and mathematics.
how?
as a veteran tvpaint/keyframer user i have no idea how to do it. and i really tried it.
Keyframer is broken
Re: Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 25 Jun 2024, 07:48
by s.decol
kelanhordos wrote: ↑21 Jun 2024, 17:46
+1 I ran into this problem a while back and couldn't figure out what on earth I was doing wrong. I tried playing with the offset as mentioned above, but I am not sure I understand as if I move the offset it moves the camera bounding box as well. Adding more keys with the offset just makes matters worse as there is more than one curve instead of straight line.
If the bounding box of the camera moves when you move your pivot, It's certainly because you move the center WITH the pivot. Make sure the checkbox beside the "Position parameter" is unchecked.
Re: Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 25 Jun 2024, 07:55
by s.decol
Peter Wassink wrote: ↑24 Jun 2024, 06:51
Hironori Takagi wrote: ↑24 Jun 2024, 01:46
I understand how to calculate the pivot point and set it to a position that does not move,
but I think it is a bit difficult to explain the same method to someone who is not interested in programming and mathematics.
how?
as a veteran tvpaint/keyframer user i have no idea how to do it. and i really tried it.
Keyframer is broken
No keyframer is definitely not broken, you just don't understand its new behaviour. But I'm gonna dig into it to make it easier to use... Once again...
Re: Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 25 Jun 2024, 09:51
by Hironori Takagi
Peter Wassink wrote: ↑24 Jun 2024, 06:51
Hironori Takagi wrote: ↑24 Jun 2024, 01:46
I understand how to calculate the pivot point and set it to a position that does not move,
but I think it is a bit difficult to explain the same method to someone who is not interested in programming and mathematics.
how?
as a veteran tvpaint/keyframer user i have no idea how to do it. and i really tried it.
Keyframer is broken
- 240625_to_peter_1.png (74.28 KiB) Viewed 3376 times
I created this diagram to help artists, not programmers, understand a little better. I hope it will be helpful.
Re: Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 25 Jun 2024, 10:15
by TVPUSER
I've come across this issue myself, I think for the sake of simplicity, having an option for the old pivot position or simply reverting the functionality back would be a good move.
Re: Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 25 Jun 2024, 10:30
by Hironori Takagi
I also agree with the idea of reverting it. I would like it to be applied to TVPaint11.7.x as well.
Re: Have the specifications of KeyFramer FX changed?
Posted: 25 Jun 2024, 11:56
by Peter Wassink
Thank you Hironori!
That helps. (although that second image is not easy to decipher)
I would also like an option for the old pivot
one weird aspect of the new behavior is that when the offset/pivot is not ticked
so no blue circle ... yet when you then change the offset value, the green pivot does noy change, which i find confusing.