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Hi everyone, and anyone who would like to help in any way. I am a 3rd year University Student on a degree at Westminster Uni (England). I'm retaking this last year, I failed it initially 2 years ago. There are several projects (such as a dissertation), for the main short film project, I am running into the same problems as I did before. I was wondering if any one can help me? One of the main problems I have is that I keep restarting from the beginning, scrapping a story idea and starting from skratch. Usually this is because I can't think of a decent story, or a way to flesh out a paper thin concept for a story (no pun intended, haha). The idea I'm on now, I SWORE to myself that I would not quit on it... but I am already feeling like starting again.

WARNING! - I will be writing a lot of stuff from here on, sorry in advance for all this. Feel free to ignore me/not read all this

I chose to do a story that already kind of exists, party in the hope that it would help me avoid getting stuck with content. I will paste parts of an email I sent to my tutor about a week ago, so that I don't have to type it all out again. Most problems still are in effect;

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I had initially scrapped this Alice idea for many reasons, one of which was to concentrate on the 3 ideas I ended up pitching, which were simpler, animation wise. The problem with my recent 3 pitches was that after that, my mind went blank, I couldn't think of anything else to do with them. They all had beginnings but no end, and had pretty much no storyline what so ever. Then I spoke to you 2 weeks ago and told you that I had recently decided to do a 4th idea, which was about an apokolyptic event, inwhich 2 brothers are fighting for survival and simply trying to get back to one another so that they can die together (weep weep). The end would have been them getting to each other, and then dieing, not that you would actually see that though. A fade to black would have surficed, that kind of thing. But anyway, I have scrapped that too. I simply could not think of any way to do it visually other than how I had initially imagend it, which was way too complicated, and mostly involved buildings and mountines crumbling in way too much detail. That's the main reason why I wanted to do it, to convay things falling from the sky, destruction, etc. When we last spoke, you suggested a simpler look to the film, but after that, I couldn't imagine it in that new way, and I just decided I couldn't pull the film off in general.

My new idea, or rather the OLDEST idea from before I even came back to Uni, is based on Alice, or rather Alice Through the Looking Glass. I could go into immense detail about why I chose this, but I will try to abbriviate it for now. I am an "Alice" and a Lewis Carroll fan in general. I am aware that Alice books are adapted into film and tv probably more often than anything else, ever, but one of the reasons why I still want to do it, is that there are so many parts to the books that are often ignored. Through the Looking Glass in general is often overshadowed by Alices Adventures in Wonderland. I for one really like Through the Looking Glass, and even though screen versions of the first book often mix in some scenes from Through the Looking Glass, they are still primarily adaptations of the more popular first book. Another reason I felt like doing this, was my major dissapointment in Tim Burtons recent Alice film, I'm usually a fan of his films, but that was a rubbish, and completely missed the point.

On to what I've done so far;

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BACKGROUND / EXPLAINATION

This is an animation of one small section in the book titled Alice Through the Look Glass, the sequal to Alices Adventures in Wonderland, both written by Lewis Carroll.

ORIGINAL TEXT

She looked at the Queen, who seemed to have suddenly wrapped herself up
in wool. Alice rubbed her eyes, and looked again. She couldn't make out
what had happened at all. Was she in a shop? And was that really--was it
really a SHEEP that was sitting on the other side of the counter? Rub as
she could, she could make nothing more of it: she was in a little dark
shop, leaning with her elbows on the counter, and opposite to her was
an old Sheep, sitting in an arm-chair knitting, and every now and then
leaving off to look at her through a great pair of spectacles.

'What is it you want to buy?' the Sheep said at last, looking up for a
moment from her knitting.

'I don't QUITE know yet,' Alice said, very gently. 'I should like to
look all round me first, if I might.'

'You may look in front of you, and on both sides, if you like,' said the
Sheep: 'but you can't look ALL round you--unless you've got eyes at the
back of your head.'

But these, as it happened, Alice had NOT got: so she contented herself
with turning round, looking at the shelves as she came to them.

The shop seemed to be full of all manner of curious things--but the
oddest part of it all was, that whenever she looked hard at any shelf,
to make out exactly what it had on it, that particular shelf was always
quite empty: though the others round it were crowded as full as they
could hold.

'Things flow about so here!' she said at last in a plaintive tone, after
she had spent a minute or so in vainly pursuing a large bright thing,
that looked sometimes like a doll and sometimes like a work-box, and was
always in the shelf next above the one she was looking at. 'And this one
is the most provoking of all--but I'll tell you what--' she added, as a
sudden thought struck her, 'I'll follow it up to the very top shelf of
all. It'll puzzle it to go through the ceiling, I expect!'

But even this plan failed: the 'thing' went through the ceiling as
quietly as possible, as if it were quite used to it.

'Are you a child or a teetotum?' the Sheep said, as she took up another
pair of needles. 'You'll make me giddy soon, if you go on turning round
like that.' She was now working with fourteen pairs at once, and Alice
couldn't help looking at her in great astonishment.

'How CAN she knit with so many?' the puzzled child thought to herself.
'She gets more and more like a porcupine every minute!'

'Can you row?' the Sheep asked, handing her a pair of knitting-needles
as she spoke.

'Yes, a little--but not on land--and not with needles--' Alice was
beginning to say, when suddenly the needles turned into oars in her
hands, and she found they were in a little boat, gliding along between
banks: so there was nothing for it but to do her best.

'Feather!' cried the Sheep, as she took up another pair of needles.

This didn't sound like a remark that needed any answer, so Alice said
nothing, but pulled away. There was something very queer about the
water, she thought, as every now and then the oars got fast in it, and
would hardly come out again.

'Feather! Feather!' the Sheep cried again, taking more needles. 'You'll
be catching a crab directly.'

'A dear little crab!' thought Alice. 'I should like that.'

'Didn't you hear me say "Feather"?' the Sheep cried angrily, taking up
quite a bunch of needles.

'Indeed I did,' said Alice: 'you've said it very often--and very loud.
Please, where ARE the crabs?'

'In the water, of course!' said the Sheep, sticking some of the needles
into her hair, as her hands were full. 'Feather, I say!'

'WHY do you say "feather" so often?' Alice asked at last, rather vexed.
'I'm not a bird!'

'You are,' said the Sheep: 'you're a little goose.'

This offended Alice a little, so there was no more conversation for a
minute or two, while the boat glided gently on, sometimes among beds of
weeds (which made the oars stick fast in the water, worse then ever),
and sometimes under trees, but always with the same tall river-banks
frowning over their heads.

'Oh, please! There are some scented rushes!' Alice cried in a sudden
transport of delight. 'There really are--and SUCH beauties!'

'You needn't say "please" to ME about 'em,' the Sheep said, without
looking up from her knitting: 'I didn't put 'em there, and I'm not going
to take 'em away.'

'No, but I meant--please, may we wait and pick some?' Alice pleaded. 'If
you don't mind stopping the boat for a minute.'

'How am _I_ to stop it?' said the Sheep. 'If you leave off rowing, it'll
stop of itself.'

So the boat was left to drift down the stream as it would, till it
glided gently in among the waving rushes. And then the little sleeves
were carefully rolled up, and the little arms were plunged in elbow-deep
to get the rushes a good long way down before breaking them off--and for
a while Alice forgot all about the Sheep and the knitting, as she
bent over the side of the boat, with just the ends of her tangled hair
dipping into the water--while with bright eager eyes she caught at one
bunch after another of the darling scented rushes.

'I only hope the boat won't tipple over!' she said to herself. 'Oh, WHAT
a lovely one! Only I couldn't quite reach it.' 'And it certainly DID
seem a little provoking ('almost as if it happened on purpose,' she
thought) that, though she managed to pick plenty of beautiful rushes as
the boat glided by, there was always a more lovely one that she couldn't
reach.

'The prettiest are always further!' she said at last, with a sigh at the
obstinacy of the rushes in growing so far off, as, with flushed cheeks
and dripping hair and hands, she scrambled back into her place, and
began to arrange her new-found treasures.

What mattered it to her just then that the rushes had begun to fade, and
to lose all their scent and beauty, from the very moment that she
picked them? Even real scented rushes, you know, last only a very little
while--and these, being dream-rushes, melted away almost like snow, as
they lay in heaps at her feet--but Alice hardly noticed this, there were
so many other curious things to think about.

They hadn't gone much farther before the blade of one of the oars got
fast in the water and WOULDN'T come out again (so Alice explained it
afterwards), and the consequence was that the handle of it caught her
under the chin, and, in spite of a series of little shrieks of 'Oh, oh,
oh!' from poor Alice, it swept her straight off the seat, and down among
the heap of rushes.

However, she wasn't hurt, and was soon up again: the Sheep went on with
her knitting all the while, just as if nothing had happened. 'That was
a nice crab you caught!' she remarked, as Alice got back into her place,
very much relieved to find herself still in the boat.

'Was it? I didn't see it,' Said Alice, peeping cautiously over the side
of the boat into the dark water. 'I wish it hadn't let go--I should
so like to see a little crab to take home with me!' But the Sheep only
laughed scornfully, and went on with her knitting.

'Are there many crabs here?' said Alice.

'Crabs, and all sorts of things,' said the Sheep: 'plenty of choice,
only make up your mind. Now, what DO you want to buy?'

'To buy!' Alice echoed in a tone that was half astonished and half
frightened--for the oars, and the boat, and the river, had vanished all
in a moment, and she was back again in the little dark shop.

'I should like to buy an egg, please,' she said timidly. 'How do you
sell them?'

'Fivepence farthing for one--Twopence for two,' the Sheep replied.

'Then two are cheaper than one?' Alice said in a surprised tone, taking
out her purse.

'Only you MUST eat them both, if you buy two,' said the Sheep.

'Then I'll have ONE, please,' said Alice, as she put the money down on
the counter. For she thought to herself, 'They mightn't be at all nice,
you know.'

The Sheep took the money, and put it away in a box: then she said 'I
never put things into people's hands--that would never do--you must get
it for yourself.' And so saying, she went off to the other end of the
shop, and set the egg upright on a shelf.

'I wonder WHY it wouldn't do?' thought Alice, as she groped her way
among the tables and chairs, for the shop was very dark towards the end.
'The egg seems to get further away the more I walk towards it. Let me
see, is this a chair? Why, it's got branches, I declare! How very odd to
find trees growing here! And actually here's a little brook! Well, this
is the very queerest shop I ever saw!'

SUMMARY

Alice finds herself in a shop in which the clerk is a sheep. She tries to find something to buy, but items on shelves seem to move as soon as she gets close to them, she is unable to even focus in on them. The sheep, who is constantly knitting, hands Alice knitting-needles, which change into oars, they are suddenly rowing in a boat. The sheep continues to knit with many knitting-needles, while shouting out rowing terminology that Alice doesn't understand. She spots rushes, she stops and picks some. She cannot reach the most beautiful ones though. The rushes she picked quickly fade and die. Suddenly they are returned to the shop. Alice buys an egg .

STORY BREAKDOWN (v01)

Scene One

- ALICE enters the shop
- ALICE is walking in the shop, heading to the dark end of the room
- ALICE finds the shop keeper, a SHEEP, knitting in a rocking chair behind the counter
- ALICE leans on the counter to observe the SHEEP
- The SHEEP briefly looks up at ALICE wth little interest
- ALICE then looks around the shop for something to buy
- Items turn out to be difficult to focus on, such as in dreams
- ALICE chooses one specific item she wants, and persues it with difficulty
- ALICE follows it up, believing that it could not go through the ceiling
- The item goes through the cealing, much to ALICES provail
- The SHEEP continues to nitt, each time she is shown, she is knitting with more needles
- ALICE climbs back down
- The SHEEP hands ALICE 2 knitting needles
- The needles turn into oars

Scene Two

- Suddenly ALICE and the SHEEP are in a rowing boat
- ALICE rows, she isn't very good at it
- There are perhaps crabs around, to signify ALICES ignorance of rowing terms
- The SHEEP gets irritated by ALICES bad rowing
- ALICE happily notices scented rushes
- ALICE stops the boat
- ALICE picks some rushes
- ALICE begins to arrange the rushes
- The rushes fade very quickly, like melting snow
- While continueing to row, one of ALICES oars catches her, pushing her down amoung the rushes
- ALICE is not hurt, she sits back up
- The SHEEP is annoyed at ALICE

Scene Three (final)

- Suddenly they are back in the shop
- ALICE buys an Egg (this becomes Humpy Dumpty, but this is the end for me)

SCRIPT (v01)

[Haven't done this yet. This script may not be nessessery, if I can get away with it, my short will have little to no dialog. If I write this script, it will be more like a veriation of the 'story breakdown' above, as in it will have descriptions of what the characters are doing, but I will tidy it up and it will be done in a way which is more like how a script is properly written]

NOTES [these are just notes to myself, I won't bother explaining them for now, they're mostly self-explainatory anyway, they're just here to remind me of stuff]

- Facial expressions
- Body states
- Composition
- Camera placement
- Cuts
- Ambient sound
- Staging
- Making the film vs My animation skill limitations

TO DO LIST [in no particular order]

01. Blocking diagram of scenes
02. Finish character design
03. Do scene (background) design
04. Storyboard [!]
05. Animatic
06. Add more to this TO DO list [theres much more!]
07. Make the story not suck and not be intensly boring
08. Thumbnail storyboard
09. Figure out tone
10. Figure out genre (?)

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Number 07 in the above list is a big problem at the moment, I've fallen into a trap which was one of the reasons why I gave up this idea in the first place. You see, another reason why I wanted to do an Alice animation, was that I think Alice adaptations often go to much for the visual side, and ignore the actual writing in the books. The books are actually a lot to do with puns, word play, and poetry, and to be honest they are not quite as surreal after I read stuff like the Annotated Alice. It turns out a lot of the weird stuff in the Alice books are just either weird to kids, or to people in the present day because the world has changed since Carols day. A lot of the weird bits are actually jokes that relate to social and politcal things that were happening at the time. Now of course, to children or people right now, there things we know nothing about just seem wacky. There are also quite a few hidden things in the books which usually don't apear in adaptations. Another reason why I scrapped this Alice project in the first place was that I was afraid I wouldnt be able to do it justice, I respect the source material too much to take messing it up.

But anyway, I've done back to it because it interests me, and to be honest, it makes me feel better that the story is already layed out for me. I assume, by the way, that I am allowed to do this project? The story is Public Domain, after all Anyway, that was a complete tangent, I was going to explain the problem I've ran into; I've quickly discovered WHY people in the past have ignored the text and done for the visuals, its really hard, haha. Even the scene I've chosen, which is more physical than most of the scenes in the book, is still vert 'word' heavy... Haha, it's stupid me saying that when I'm refering to a book. I guess what I mean to say is that many parts of the book are interesting because of what the characters are saying, not doing. Like I said earlier, its a lot of jokes and plays on words, many of which do not translate to screen at all. After re-reading that story breakdown I made, it suddenly seems really boring. And the story has pretty much no conflict.

Another problem is that I don't really want it to be like a kids film, I may make it like that in the end, but at the moment, I'm having real problems visualising the film and figuring out exactly what its all about, including the tone. I actually want it to be more experimental, not really a comedy, and quite dark and menessing. That said, don't get me wrong, I don't want to make a "dark gothy" Alice, that has been done so many times before, it's become a cliche. I do lie the tone of Jan Svankmajors Alice though, that is fantastic. but the more I thought about doing it like that, the more I realised that it is so unique to him. That is his life, his film. His films are influenced by his background and his life. I should do that too, though, depressingly, it makes me feel as though I pretty much don't have a life, haha. My life is pretty boring, and I feel like that is why all my ideas are boring and unoriginal.

One last thing, the scene I have chosen has a kind of "the grass is always greener on the other side" theme, I should try to work on that.

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That's the end of the email, there was actually more, but I will bore you know longer. At the moment, the main problem is that the scene doesn't seem to have much internesting conflict in it. Also I'm not sure how to end it... actually basically I'm screwed on so many levels. Any help would be wonderful.

Thank you.

PS - OH! I should tell you the technical stuff. It will mostly be done in TVPaint, in fact I will try to do all of it in TVPaint. It will be 2D drawn on a tablet. I will probably use Sony Vegas Movie Studio 10.0 if I need to edit it more. Sound will be done in Cinescore, and maybe Adobe Audition. the film needs to be 16:9. The length needs to be at least 2 mins really, max 5 mins, but it can be anything really. I am aiming for 3 mins. Also, looking back at it now, I think that perhaps that entire scene in the book is a little too long for 3 mins, so I may need to choose just one part. Also, I do not need to keep strictly to the original story, this is early dev, so if it changes into a non-Alice related story, so be it. I just don't want to scrap it altogether.

Perhaps my last messege was too much. Bascially, does anyone have any advice on what I could do to flesh out the shop scene? Over the past night, I have come up with a small idea, but it still needs more work. My idea is that the focus of the film will be Alices difficulty getting hold of something to buy, a specific item. In the book, it is not something specific , but in the short, perhaps I should make it something tangable. The main new part of the idea is that Alice does not manage to get it, but then at the end when shes walking away, it softly propels itself at the back of her head (or something like that). She picks it up, is happy for a moment, but then when she has it, owns it, she looses interest quickly and throws it away/puts it back.

I don't get the point.

You're not supposed to do a feature film, do you? So it's ging to be a short. Why so much writing before? If you can't tell the plot in two or three sentences, then it's not a story for a short.

This may be just my personal taste, but I really prefer the film longer and fuller than the script ...

Is it an important story for you? Very, very important? I'd toss it and pick up a better one if I'd be that stuck with anything.
If you pick up something from your own experience you wouldn't need advice on what to do with it because you would be the only one who knows everything there is to know. If you don't have a story like that, maybe you shouldn't be telling stories at all. Tristan Jones once wrote that stories happen only to people with imagination...

slowtiger wrote:I don't get the point. You're not supposed to do a feature film, do you? So it's ging to be a short. Why so much writing before? If you can't tell the plot in two or three sentences, then it's not a story for a short. This may be just my personal taste, but I really prefer the film longer and fuller than the script ...

Yes, like I said in my first messege, it is not a feature film, it is 3 minutes long. So much writing? If you mean my first messege, yes, sorry that was too long. But the plot is in fact told in two or three sentences, under Summary. Sorry I don't understand your last statement, I have not written a script yet, and what film are you refering to?

Paul Fierlinger wrote:Is it an important story for you? Very, very important? I'd toss it and pick up a better one if I'd be that stuck with anything. If you pick up something from your own experience you wouldn't need advice on what to do with it because you would be the only one who knows everything there is to know. If you don't have a story like that, maybe you shouldn't be telling stories at all. Tristan Jones once wrote that stories happen only to people with imagination...

Yes the story is important to me. I am trying not to toss another idea, as I have done that about 20 times before, I'm always stuck at square one when I do that. I want to stick to one for once. Not tell stories at all? Well, yes I could give up now and stop, but concidering the fact that I have done this year before, failed it, and am now retaking it, giving up now would be stupid. I have spent too much money and time to quit now.

I was yanking your chain and being half serious. But think about it: you are a student of art, a creative endeavor. Most people in your position are overflowing with ideas and wish they had enough time and experience to make all their ideas happen. There's a reason why you are failing to come up with one that would stick. If you would be my student I would encourage you to spend more time searching within yourself for something important to say.

But to say that this story is important to you because you are determined not to give up yet another time is not the most important reason to continue. You obviously have a creative block, not lack of determination. To deal with your creative block through yet more determination is not going to solve anything and in my opinion to find someone else to write the story for you is a greater failure from a creative standpoint than to yet one more time start over again to come up with a new idea that will work for you and will write itself.

Oh right, yes, they are good points. Thanks.

I definitely suck at creating stories. My films are one-liners, so to say, building on just the simplest idea. But to find this idea I spend quite some time. For each finished film there's about 50 ideas in my sketchbook which didn't make it. I just had the idea, wrote it down, but rejected it when re-reading it. Only the ideas which seems to have potential to me get any further (the "recall"). Only with those I seriously spend some time to develop them. If the original idea isn't appealing at all to me, I don't waste time with developing it. Some ideas have slept for 20 years in one of my sketchbooks, and only recently I found the missing element which made it worth to make a film from it.

I believe in a certain healthy ratio between the length of a storie's outline and the finished film. You know that some of Hitchcock's best features are based on a short story of less than 10 pages? And how much has to be left out in all those movies based on novels? Now think of a short film of three minutes: the plot should fit on a postcard, IMO.

So maybe you should try again and just "sell" me your idea in less than 150 words. This should be the "spine" of your film. Everything else is just to flesh it out, to clothe it.

I believe that the solution to finding a story lies at the very core of a simple question every animator/author has to ask themselves first: why do I want to animate? I pose this question to all my students in the first hour of our first class and most students say something like, Because I like animated films. Hardly ever does anyone answer, Because I have a need to say things through animated drawings. It's fine to want to get a sailboat because I love to sail and just sail around a lake the whole day. But to create, one needs to have an urge to get somewhere, not just an idea to start creating something.

Paul Fierlinger wrote:I believe that the solution to finding a story lies at the very core of a simple question every animator/author has to ask themselves first: why do I want to animate? I pose this question to all my students in the first hour of our first class and most students say something like, Because I like animated films. Hardly ever does anyone answer, Because I have a need to say things through animated drawings. It's fine to want to get a sailboat because I love to sail and just sail around a lake the whole day. But to create, one needs to have an urge to get somewhere, not just an idea to start creating something.

Yes, true. I might try to answer that main question here, when I have some more time. Thanks.

slowtiger wrote:I definitely suck at creating stories. My films are one-liners, so to say, building on just the simplest idea. But to find this idea I spend quite some time. For each finished film there's about 50 ideas in my sketchbook which didn't make it. I just had the idea, wrote it down, but rejected it when re-reading it. Only the ideas which seems to have potential to me get any further (the "recall"). Only with those I seriously spend some time to develop them. If the original idea isn't appealing at all to me, I don't waste time with developing it. Some ideas have slept for 20 years in one of my sketchbooks, and only recently I found the missing element which made it worth to make a film from it.

I believe in a certain healthy ratio between the length of a storie's outline and the finished film. You know that some of Hitchcock's best features are based on a short story of less than 10 pages? And how much has to be left out in all those movies based on novels? Now think of a short film of three minutes: the plot should fit on a postcard, IMO.

So maybe you should try again and just "sell" me your idea in less than 150 words. This should be the "spine" of your film. Everything else is just to flesh it out, to clothe it.

Yeah that makes me think. Interesting way to do it, to start off with a "one-liner" type situation and then build outwards from there. In line with the original replies in this thread, I've actually decided to scrap the Alice idea, though I may continue it in the future just for myself, in my free time. Along with the reasons I had explained before, I'm also scrapping it because of technical reasons, I came to the conclusion that I would not be able to pull it off in the time that I have. I'm going back to an older idea of mine, one which is much simpler and to be honest, less story and narrative driven, as I keep struggling with that.

I will explain it in more detail later, unfortunetly I now have to work on my dissertation for the next 4 or so days. That reminds me, it's a shame, I would love to have the time to come up with an idea I'm passionate about, and one that "speaks" to me. But the reality is that I have 2 other projects to do at the same time, and deadlines. I have 4 months to do the short film I've been talking about, by the way. The other projects are due in sooner.

Many of us have been there and in similar situations. 4 months is enough time to make a 3 minute film, if you come to the beginning of the 4 months with a ready idea, a storyboard (at least a rough breakdown of scenes). It doesn't have to be scripted and doesn't have to be written in a way that should be readable by a fellow animator.

as it looks to me, you are wrapped around having to have an idea. well, how about not having an idea, or in fact going anti-idea? how about having no story at all? where do you draw your inspiration from? which animated films inhabit your mind while you search for ideas?

Like Paul said, if you want it done well, look inside you. now, you don't actually have to go all transcendental here, but simply look at your own ways. think of your habits, your fixations, your pattern of thoughts. do you find some repeating elements? what are they exactly? what is the reason they keep visiting you? can they tell anything about your real passions? can they bring an early memory, or dream?

find one element, and you have enough material for a few short films.

* 2-3 amounts of whisky might help towards the goal.

* 2-3 amounts of whisky might help towards the goal.

Well, it doesn't have to be alcohol. For me it works to have 1 additional cup of coffee (the strong, german one) at about 21:30, and my dreams become violently visual, so to say: crammed with images and stuff, more than I can write down or sketch in the morning.

What does the final product do for you in the future? Is it just for the class, or is this becoming part of a showreel? ie: what's the point of the exercise? Is it just to make some animation, or to have a neat little story?

I agree, you should get it from within yourself. Or, you could just 'redo' a scene from a Buster Keaton, Charlie Chaplin, etc. film.