Welcome to TVPaint Community forums !

Hello again,

I have one more question for today...
I enjoy watching films and studying their construction -- the one thing I try to pay close attention to is the structure of audio. How does one go about creating the audio for a short film? Please don't give me an answer like "Use a software like Audacity etc". I'm looking for the development. I have history with audio construction and software for recording -- but I don't know at what stage you go about designing.

Do you first begin by constructing an animatic then go through and add sounds to match the timing of scenes? Or am I missing something? Would you include the score in the final audio file? Or is that added in editing?

Some films audio does not match up -- while others seem to be spot on!

If anyone could tell me the most sufficient method of proper audio/timing?

Again, thanks

Darius

Depends on what you are doing. If you want to do lip synched animation, you record the dialog first and then time your animation to that. Any decent book on animation covers this topic in detail so I won't repeat it all here.

Music and sound effects are usually done in post, once all of the edits are locked. If you have your animation timings worked out before hand, you can write music directly to the Xsheets. In fact, traditionally, a horizontal timing sheet was used for working out music and foley, very similar to the timeline used in TVPaint (as opposed to the traditional vertical XSheet). Carl Stalling wrote a lot of music for Looney Tunes this way, that way he didn't have to wait for a completed 7 minute cartoon to be done.

This is a book worthy of study, if you are interested in this topic (I sure am!)

http://www.amazon.com/Designing-Sound-A ... 578&sr=8-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the reply, Brett. I will take a look at that book. I'd like to make short films that require little to no dialog -- just serene sounds and fill noises. I'm not too big on animated films that focus on script. I believe animations should speak for themselves! ~visual story telling~.
You've got some nice music on your site!

Best

I've got audio in my head all the time. I can time my movements completely in mind and write them down with musical notes, if necessary. The kind of sound design I want usually is set right from the start, not in the exact way which sound I use, but which overall impression I want to achieve. The sound is equally important to the visuals.

I've done music for films where each movement had its own music, in the spirit of the old Carl Stalling or Scott Bradley scores. But nowadays I prefer a mixture of music, sound FX and a solid foundation of atmo.

Very creative, sir...
I appreciate you both writing back with helpful words of advice. I would really like to see a start-to-finish video from somebody. From basic story elements to final production!

I am not a musician so I have to establish a very tight relationship with my composer. Ideally we start working at the same time. I send him animatics to which he starts constructing his sounds and as I tighten my animation, his music goes through changes. We talk about these things over e-mail a lot. Sometimes he can overdo certain sounds and we go back to some of the earlier takes. But most often he just gets it right. I give him directions which he follows for about ten minutes and then follows his own ideas and surprises me. Surprises are the best thing to happen in animation -- in audio and imagery alike; far, far more important than that tired rule about following an arch. I like your direction of thinking and I like the questions you ask. You are a rare phenomenon on these pages.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that as much as he follows my imagery, I will change the direction of my actions to match new developments in his music.

I'm glad you included the last bit; "As much as he follows my imagery, I will change the direction of my actions to match new developments in his music." I read somewhere John K does the same. Sound is a very powerful element. I am still not 100% clear on this subject -- but again I am too young to understand production technique! I love communicating with you all -- you all are very kind and have much wisdom to share.

It's important to be flexible, to not dwell on a style, a formula, a single idea or consider success an arrival. European countries developed and perfected the non-verbal short because their small, single language based markets could not support their own animation industries alone. Animated films had to work in all languages and cultures for animators to eke a living out of their art. Communist block countries took this trend the furthest because artists had the additional challenge of getting their films past the censors of rigid, ideological doctrines. These conditions created great art and innovations. The opening of a global market and the liberation from restraining political ideologies made us more competitive while money took over the functionality of restraining ideologies. Producers replaced the political strongmen and dictated what sells and what can't sell. With the opening of the Internet and inventions of e-readers we are all faced with a new direction and endless niche groups to cater to -- the era of mass appeal is ending while anything goes is replacing trendiness. We are free to create whatever we want because there is power in numbers. Anything that was once small is now enormous across the Internet.

You know, I wondered why countries like France produce animations without dialog. I assumed they were staying true to that traditional "Tom and Jerry" vibe. <- To elaborate, I'm talking of course of shorts I've seen online -- I have no idea what television or feature films are like over there.

That's a very bad habit of mine, Paul. I keep looking at things technically -- trying to solve problems with formula. I guess I am chasing for that "solve-all" fix. I just want to understand that aspects and basic understandings of animation. I'm going to take your words of advice and try experimenting with hopes of hopes of achievement -- rather than science.

I often tend to work Japanese style and do audio last, but like Slow Tiger said, I always have audio in my head, sometimes even before the first drawing is done. Audio is really a huge part of any motion picture. I think there are some great advantages to doing audio first, and I think the acting usually comes out better this way, but there are also some pluses to doing it last. I cover a lot of this in my video tutorials.

There are some cheats you can use to fill the gaps, though, and I learned a lot working on low budget flicks in Hollywood. Use temp music and temp audio. When we were constructing our films, in the earlier stages, we would often throw in music and audio from other movies, just have as a guide. This stuff would, of course, be replaced later. Even our editor would do a lot of basic sound work, throwing music and sound FX on the timeline, even if it would not be used when the real sound designers got a hold of it.

Just like there are many cheats which can be used to make the visual side of picture flow easier, the same exist for the audio side. I say use every trick in the book.